Enginer plug in?

Its interesting, if someone can make it happen I think there is still a market opportunity (as evidenced by how often these kind of threads pop up) for a budget PHEV conversion targeting Gen 2s. Converting Gen 3s doesn't make much sense relative to the cost of the alternatives (PiP, Volt, Leaf etc) but that isn't really relevant to someone in the market for a ~$10k Gen 2. It seems to me that previous conversions got expensive in part because they were targeting a higher end early adopter market that was looking for seemless integration and extended functionality (high speed EV for example). Enginer had an interesting approach to cost reduction, but it seems was largely done in by the inherent difficulty in trying to make a high power dc:dc converter cheap.

I'd love to see someone come out with a no-frills conversion that would still yield a decent mileage bump on a Gen 2 for $2-3k. Perhaps even better an open source cooperative effort (CalCars 2.0?) to develop and support something like this, with the goal of breathing new life into the large fleet of aging Gen 2 Prii at a price point and skill level that would make PHEVs more widely accessible. If one could be developed in this price range that completely replaced the HV battery, it could even become a viable alternative to replacement of a failed OEM battery at a similar cost.

It still might not come out cash positive, but certainly not everyone that buys a Prius does so for strictly economic reasons even when operating with limited financial means.

Rob

 

i couldn't agree more, but that's a big if.

 

MD-Tech have been bought by a Billion $ company, listed on the Shanghai Stock Exchange, Shanghai Acrel Ms Co.,ltd. Acrel are investing in development of the kits which will also benefit from Acrels Documentation and Quality Control procedures. I am working with them to ensure proper testing and version control. I am a veteran Test Engineer, having worked as lead Test Engineer on part of the ground segment at the European Space Agency for ten years. I see a long future for Hybrid conversions at the right price. Since I started working with them and selling in Europe we have had only one equipment failure and that was due to User abuse, however, we replaced the BMS and redesigned safety features to prevent this from happening.

Power output from the converter is now 21.5 amps and can peak at 23 amps. Protection circuits in the converter and BMS prevent burn out. These circuits are an absolute must have in any BMS when you have two separate packs in series, "two packs in series do not one pack make"- internal resistances from pack to pack can vary. Single cell LVC has been raised to 2.75V and HVC has been lowered for a single cell to 3.55V. Packs are automatically balanced. BMS voltage measurement accuracy is as high as any mV measuring device.

I am hopeful that someone will decide to pick up the ball in the US. Here is a copy of the latest BMS manual.

 

I have been in contact with them for some time.
Unfortunately due to investors being burned it is hard to trust the system of this kind.

I have requested a sample/evaluation system so that it can be put through its paces but the company is not able to do that.

Given the huge amount of negative press about this type of system, I think consumers will continue to have distrust of this system until proven otherwise.

One of these systems will need to be installed in the US and assessed for at least 60 days before they will gain any credibility.

I have left the door open to discussion.
Investors can call me and we can talk.

Side note... Gas is currently $2.65 per gallon. Not much interest in PHEV when gas is so cheap.

 

Maybe why they are targeting Europe where fuel costs are high. Fuel prices had fallen here, but are already beginning to rise again. Up about 12 pence a gallon in the last two weeks.

John (Britprius)

 

I had a similar situation with the company rep. I also had requested a sample for assessing operation and quality of their product; even offered to paid the shipping charges for same.
I was turned down with a minimum purchase of 200 pieces for wholesale pricing.
There is a future with this type of kits but the overseas dealing, if you do not speak their language, is an atrocity.
I rather invest in commercial Photo Voltaic systems....

 

was that eric dong?

 

The same "Dong" .....

 

Without one in the hands of a trusted member of this community, it is going to be an uphill battle for them.
Anyone who does an internet search will quickly find dozens of unsatisfied owners of similar systems.

Even if the unit is new and improved, it will be painted with the same brush.

Simply saying, " Trust us", is not going to work. Many of us put money and reputations on the line once already. There needs to be some give on the other end, and x% off retail is not enough, given the huge trust deficit that exists.

 

seems like the same scam over and over. i guess if you're persistent, you're bound to find a sucker sooner or later.

 

I don't think it is a scam at all.
I'm just saying there needs to be some understanding of the position I (and others) are in.

If anyone else is willing to risk some cash, I am willing to put up a portion of the money to install one of these in a customer's car. I'd also donate the labor. My contact info is in my signature.

I could try it on one of my customers that was burned by Enginer. If he can be convinced that the system is improved, then it would be a great case study and testimonial.

 

a multi billion dollar corp that won't invest in one unit? scam. but that's just me.

 

Nah, its the way Chinese companies do business. They only ever start building the kit/s after receiving an order, whether it is one or 100 kits, never before the order. They never do it for free even for marketing sake.

 

wow, that is odd. cultural thing i guess, don't know how it works for them.

 

Yep. Just a different way of doing business.
I'll keep "plugging away" at this. This may come together some day.
It still will be a system that costs more than "2 or 3 thousand dollars."

I think we have seen what happens when quality is skimped on, in the name of "saving money".
Quality components will cost money.
Labor to install these units costs money.
If you want a quality unit installed by a competent tech, then it will cost money.
$6,000 or so? Maybe. But certainly not the $2,000-$3,000 that Rob is hoping for.

 

We are curious if there is still a business model to made for these Plug-In Kits. We(as in my company Motors City Motors - to answer an earlier post). Currently we have a New-old stock Hymotion kit on Ebay for $3900 which includes the install. That would have cost $11k brand new, back in the day. After E-bay's fees and Pay Pal, there is very little profit to be made. We have access to 30 New-old stock kits and parts for another 100 units. As part of the A123 bankruptcy, these kits were awarded by the judge to our supplier and his company would like to liquidate them. Our supplier has no interest in dealing direct with consumers as these kits are a small portion of his business. Our supplier contacted every former Hymotion supplier/dealer and only one was interested in helping put these kits in clients cars. He got in touch with us through Dwayne Harvey who is a regular contributor to PC. Our supplier is even willing to warranty these kits and he has been in business since 1950. We have been in business doing Alternative energy conversions since 2002. The kit is still sitting on ebay after 2 months

Another option we looked at was to use an Elcon charger to charge the OEM Prius battery that was supplied with power from an inverter. We hooked up 2 Elcons in parallel and we could drive in EV mode without issue. The problem is 2 Elcons cost $1400 and the inverter is another $1100. So the cost is $3900 just for the DC/DC converter that actually works like the CONCEPT that Enginer started with. Add lithium batteries, BMS, 48volt charger and we are talking the price of a nice used Prius. We just helped a customer that had one of the few working Enginer Dc/Dc converters upgrade his kit with 100amp/hr CALB cells and a modified Mini-BMS that is Plug and Play with the Enginer system. By the time we got the system working again, the customer had spent $2900 and we made $300 profit after driving from Detroit to Lancaster PA at no cost to the customer. We would be happy to help the PC community if there was a market for it. We seldom speak on PC but follow the forum from time to time.

Paul from Boulder Hybrids made a good point the last time we talked to him. If someone can lease a new Volt/Leaf or PIP for $229 a month with a full warranty(price in the Detroit Free Press this weekend), why would a consumer purchase a Plug-In Kit. Don't forget the consumer gets a rebate on their taxes for their Brand spanking new vehicle with a full factory warranty that a Plug-In kit will NOT get unless you live in a state that actually offers a rebate. You certainly won't get a rebate/tax deduction from the IRS on your Plug-In kit. It makes a difficult business case for the average consumer to buy a Plug-In kit. When Enginer, Hymotion and Plug In Supply were the only game in town, these kits flew off the shelf. Now we rarely sell one. If not for our OEM business, we would starve to death. They say if you build it, they will come. Since 2012, we are still waiting.

We welcome your thoughts. Our apologizes for those who feel this is off topic.

 

Eric is right on point on the cost vs. quality issue. While I was carefully editing my post BEFORE I hit "send", Eric made my point with much fewer words in much shorter time.

 

agreed, gas prices will dictate much of this. no one is going to make a living trying to sell to the shade tree mechanic for his personal car. and competition from factory phev's will continue to increase. sure there are a lot of lift backs on the road, but how many are interested in jumping through these kinds of hoops?

 

The Enginer / dc:dc converter approach was a pretty cool solution, but IMHO was always doomed as a low cost solution. Cheap and high power electronics just don't mix very well, particularly in an automotive environment.

I believe the most feasible low cost approach would be to remove the limitations of the existing system instead of trying to work around it as has mostly been done up until now. That mostly means developing a replacement for the stock battery ECU that would take over battery management and communications with the HV controller, or modifying/replacing the software in the existing ECU to adapt it to a larger replacement pack. Replacement is probably the only feasible approach for a commercial solution, given the potential legal issues involved with modifying Toyota's software. For a DIY/Open Source effort, modifying the code for the existing hardware might be a simpler/cheaper approach than trying to create custom automotive grade hardware.

Either would take a considerable, but probably not insurmountable development effort.

Rob

 

In fewer words, that was basically the Hybrid Interfaces approach.