Toyota FCV first driving impression

We are still years if not decades away from being provided with direct replacements. Being able to stop just about any where and fill up in minutes is necessary, because that is what we have now and people are not going to give up this unlimited freedom.

I really thought natural gas was going to be the solution offered by industry first because the infrastructure does exist and vehicles can be and have been easily converted for as long as I can remember...and last time I heard natural gas and all of it's cousins are not a limited resources and some are easily produced from waste. I even considered the Civic Natural Gas solution in 2006, except the oil industry (what I previously meant by powers that be) have not utilized or adapted to the existing infrastructure (plumbing), there by making it a very limited use vehicle.

Good points have been made for two car households owning one of these restricted use vehicles, but most people won't sacrifice their freedom...or they would have already bought an I-MIEV or Leaf...the only electric vehicles cost effective to purchase to the rest of us outside the CARB states, especially California. At this time Hybrid and Plug-In Hybrids are the only "alternative fuel" vehicles as defined by the DOE US (thanks austin) that work, although "some" still come with the price premium making the payback questionable for everyone.

One can only hope they get it right in the big picture this time.

 

Toyota FCV featured in Sunday Business section Bay Area News Group, "The New Zero" mercurynews.com by Dana Hull.

Interesting how Elon Musk calls FC's 'fool cells'. Thought I heard Hydrogen will cost about as much as gasoline. Hmmm. If the Toyota FCV costs 45 or 50k, it better be pretty darn luxurious. btw, paper said the FCV seats only four. Hmmmm, that's a minus.

Any Prius-ites planning to hit it?

 

This is what came up from Dana Hull, is it the same article?
Toyota bets big on fuel cell vehicles - San Jose Mercury News

Yes the toyota fcv will seat 4, and if california does not subsidize the hydrogen Toyota estimates it will cost about $10/kg (gallon equivalent) for the next few years then the UC davis folks toyota works with predict it may fall to $6/kg. For that reason CARB has dragged its feet to allow hydrogen to be sold, as that would make the price public. It can't do so for much longer, regulations should have passed there a decade ago. It may indeed be subsidized when it is first sold, but just in case hyundai, honda, and mercedes have been giving away unlimited hydrogen with leases.

 

Yes, that's the article. Paper has a big pic of front end of car with 'The New Zero' heading above.

 

The new Zero. Too funny. Who's running their ad campaign ... the 1950's Tobacco ad agencies?



Between, "The new Zero" ... and, "Plug-In's are for folks who have FOUR HOURS to waste" .... Toyota is really hammering home the B.S. - while they steal public money for their pet project
Even the tobacco lobby didn't get subsidies as huge as FC cars / and their fuel.
Jeez - will we never learn?
.

 

We speculating about a product that is not even on the dealer floor. Although I share skeptism about hydrogen fuel, it makes sense to wait for the production release. Then we can get the new car features and shop manuals.

I am not likely to be an early adopter but I hope some of them feel welcome at Prius chat to share their experience.

Bob Wilson

 

No I think Toyota, the california fuel cell lobby, and CARB have been speculating in the press about how many of these widgets they will sell and how much better and mass market they are than plug-in cars. I mean they must be better because in spite of them failing to deliver on their own time lines, these players continually ask for more tax payer money.

The old estimate was 53,000 fuel cell vehicles on american roads by the end of 2015, with hydrogen demand looking so promising that oil companies would be building hydrogen stations with their own money. This has been reduced to 3 vehicles being sold or leased by the end of 2015, probably with less than 15,000 vehicles on the road by the end of 2017, and the california tax payer putting up $220 million to subsidize only 100 fueling stations by 2024. We get lexus adds pretending charging a plug-in while you sleep takes time out of your day. this is part of the intellectual dishonesty when asking for billions in government money for a shaky technology. Mary Nichols pretended the reason we need fuel cells is they would be cleaner in indiana. Indiana, and queen mary has so much concern that plug-ins would produce more ghg in indiana while not caring at all that no fuel cell vehicles are likely ever going to be sold there.

So we can look at the latest charm offensive by toyota
Toyota bets big on fuel cell vehicles - San Jose Mercury News

Yet Toyota is producing a small car with similar range to the tesla S, and it is likely going to cost toyota more for each car than it costs tesla to make the S. The reason why its not building a bigger vehicle like the highlander, is that would cost much more than a tesla X, and has no hope of selling against it. Yes toyota has deep pockets, and we don't know the price yet. I'm sure they will need to price it bellow the tesla S if they expect to sell more than hundreds. We can be sure they price it less than the S, and we know the state of california will give toyota twice the money and 3 times the zev credits plus likely fuel subsidies for each copy they produce. We can ask that they actually measure how much pollution and money per mile so we can compare why these deserve more subsidies.

How about this. Because there is no way you can fuel the car short of spending 10s of thousands of dollars to build a at home hydrogen station, the car there will be no early individual adopters of these cars outside the of roughly 40% of california within 30 minutes of a hydrogen station. Some fleets may pay for refueling striations if the government gives them all the money for the hydrogen station.

 

The same happens to taxi drivers, while the cab still runs hot 24h, each car holds 3 or more shifts.

 

But commercial use is different than personal use. What works for one doesn't necessarily work for the other.

A FCEV would be better than a BEV for a taxi. The costs involved for a company to field a fleet of FCEV cars would be high though. Higher than just converting to natural gas. Likely also higher than having a 90sec battery swapping system for a BEV. Regardless, neither would be ideal in the US. Tethering a cab to one or a couple refueling stations will limit the fares it can take.

 

The Turning Point: Introducing the era of hydrogen cars

.... only 100 hydrogen stations planned by 2024 in all of CA. Hmmmm.

 

When I was behind a Chevy Equinox FCV at a light and when the light changed and it took off like a bat out of hell, the first thing I thought was where was he filling it up. The only place I knew of was in Tarrytown, NY where the GM school was.

 

c'mon it's (outsourced) high tech ... does it matter if you have to drive 20 or 30 minutes out of the way for a refill (that costs as much or more than gas, if unsubsidized) ?

.

 

Not I. And if Toyota continues to be stupid about hydrogen, I won't buy another Toyota, let alone an FCEV.

 

Living in Alabama, I doubt we'll ever see a hydrogen fueling station. EV chargers are just an RV park away.

Bob Wilson

 

That sounds like a ..... chore. Drive 20 to 30 minutes to the station, take 10 minutes to fill and another 20 to 30 minutes back home/work. Not to mention that takes 20 to 40 miles off of your range. Hmmm versus walking out to my garage spending a whole 30 seconds plugging in my car. All that without frightening my neighbors with my attire of the moment. And sometimes I have a beer in my other hand!

 

Well, if you live in California, Toyota is hosting a lottery to give away one of their FCV's. I'd imagine taxes/title/registration will cost a lot, but hey, at least you wouldn't have to pay for the car if you win it.

Want A Toyota Fuel-Cell Vehicle A Year From Now? Bid For It!

 

Are they *that* desperate for early adopters and publicity?

 

Well, it's brand new, and people are already sort of skeptical of fuel cell vehicles. I'm just wondering what Toyota will do if the winner says after a few months of owning it that it's a hassle to drive due to various issues or lack of filling stations for it.

And for the record, a similar contest was held in Illinois just recently with a Tesla.

Illinois Solar Energy Association - ISEA 2014 Tesla Raffle

You know, I'm really tempted to write to Tesla and ask if they'd be willing to do something like this in every state to help promote their cars and ev's in general.

 

That isn't all that similar. Tesla didn't offer the raffle, an independent company did.

In addition, participants didn't have to live with a certain distance of one of a dozen or so fueling stations.

 

It is all just part of their lobbying campaign, like giving funds to a congressman or senator that can pass a law that gives toyota money. "Hey did you see a fuel cell car won the EMA award?" "wow fuecl cell cars must be green if it won that, Lets give them 30 zev credits, they are so much better than plug-in cars". Or some faked hypethetical conversation using the organization.

It sounds like some made up charity, that really is an ad campaign. Anyone else believe that the "power of celebrity" selling fcv will help the environment? Or any other worthy cause.

At least the i8 auction seemed to go to a real charity. BMW i8 Concours d’Elegance Edition Sells For $825,000 At Auction

. Its not a charity that I would give to, but it at least appears to be a real charity, and not a shell organization to greenwash advertising dollars.