Prius Plug-in and Volt Pros and Cons

No actually the point is the guy would not trade his Prius to a PiP as he would lose a few thousand dollars on the trade. So he shouldn't bother trading just to save 30 cents/day.

Aside: 30 cents is 3 kWh where I live. If we assume 300 Wh/mile then the EV would drive me 10 miles to the store. (In other words, yes you would save thirty cents by walking to the store, but you'd waste 3 hours doing it.)

 

What situation for any fairly new vehicle exists where you wouldn't lose money?

The answer is none. Loss is inevitable, which is why just about everyone chooses to not trade.

 

There are a lot of big pickup trucks where I live. If everyone wanted to minimize their fuel costs, there'd be very few. The point is that it's not everyone's priority. Some people like the ability to go off-road, haul a few people, haul some cargo, and fuel is not a big concern.

I initially penciled-out the costs of a hybrid over a conventional vehicle, and it didn't make financial sense, with or without subsidies. But then I realized, fuel is just one priority of many. With the Prius, I got much more interior room than a subcompact, and I got the added satisfaction of saving fuel. I genuinely enjoy being able to go on a 500-mile trip on ten gallons of fuel.

There's no accounting for taste. If basic transportation costs were the only concern, we'd all be driving mo-peds and taking public transportation. We spend as much as we comfortably want to spend on the vehicle we want to drive. If you are comfortable losing a few thousand trading a vehicle for one you like better, I say go for it.

 

I would not qualify EPA testing as controlled in any way that is particularly meaningful to customers. The numbers are self-reported by the manufacturers and generally done by simulation rather than actual driving. The most reliable numbers I know of by far is to take the median value from a site like Fuelly. You also have to be tuned in enough to realize when your particular habits are way outside of the norm and will affect your results - ie. short trips with plenty of stops and hills such as I have, or abnormally high percentage of highway driving (such as the month I spent in a Jeep Grand Cherokee in western Colorado which netted me ~26mpg over several thousand miles).

Car magazine tests, including CR, are almost universally lower than real owners will achieve.

 

The numbers are genuine. You cannot just dismiss what you don't like.

True, they don't represent cost-per-mile, since electricity isn't included. But when people simply want to know what a large quantity of owners have been seeing for gas consumption, the numbers are quite real.

The purpose of Prius PHV is to reduce gas consumption. That's exactly what it does, in a clean manner without compromising affordability or practicality.

 

You tell us it is essential to include all aspects, then intentionally exclude City and Combined values.

Well guess what, things are about to change. No more defensive role. Switching to offense is about to begin...

 

Nope, you set the precedent for this particular thread.

 

It seems to be symptomatic of a current trend which seems to put less value on objectivity than in the past. For some reason, subjective bias is more acceptable than it used to be. Increasingly, it seems like the value of things are being judged by how many times someone has hit a "like" button, instead of by weighing real-world data.

Just the ramblings of an old fogie perhaps, but take it for what it's worth.

 

Read this article: Ford Cuts Mileage Ratings After Retesting Vehicles - WSJ

Remember Ford's advertising about how the C-Max had better EPA mileage than the Prius V?

 

Right. Wrong.

I agree that "blended" gas plus electric numbers like the ones reported for PHEVs like the Energi and Volt by CR, NEDC, and Fuelly are pretty useless for people trying to estimate their own numbers based on their individual driving patterns. For example, CR tells readers that the Volt gets 45 mpg City, 76 mpg Highway, and 61 mpg combined. That's not very useful.

The EPA's separate AER, EV efficiency and gas efficiency numbers are much more useful. I recall they also have a table showing fuel costs driving various distances after a full charge that takes account of electricity and gas costs.

The EPA reporting falls down for the PiP and gets confusing and misleading when they report AER and blended electric efficiency based on the gas engine firing up on the test cycle due to speed or acceleration. I understand their delimma but the resulting numbers confuse people (6 miles AER!?).

However, the combined gas plus electric mpg numbers achieved by individual drivers are a meaning aspect of measuring their overall gas consumption. The combined numbers is not "Bo Gus" for all purposes.

I'm dubious about that claim.

My impression is that most PHEVs and BEVs are being sold and driven in areas of the country that have cleaner electricity emissions than the national average. I think at least 25% of these cars are sold in California alone. The Midwestern and southern states with the highest emissions are the least likely places for people to buy these cars, as far as I know. Also, based on anecdotal reports I suspect that an unusually high percentage of PHEV and BEV owners have solar rooftops or choose optional "green electricity" in areas with worse than the national average of electricity emissions .

I haven't personally done a careful study of the numbers so I'm not certain of this. It's just my impression.

 

I only look at the gasoline numbers when reviewing the i3 or Volt or XL1 or Plugin Prius, because the blended numbers are too variable: They depend on if you drive 100% electric or 200 miles/day and barely any electric (a blended MPG of ~1000 versus ~50).
BTW does the PiP have city/highway ratings? All I can find on the EPA is the combined score.

 

+1

 

One of the things I've found fascinating in perusing various forums is how much people's motivations for buying alternative fuel vehicles vary. Some are all about the emissions, others all about the savings, and yet others about the silent ride or gadget-filled goodness or just being different.

I'm a bit of a mix of all of those, with emissions and gadgetry figuring high in my motivations. Where I live in eastern Massachusetts is better than most parts of the country (fitting that correlation someone mentioned earlier of states with greener outlook also having a citizenry with greater interest in alternative fuel vehicles) because of their greater use of natural gas than coal. Still far from ideal, but they're making progress. (That page you linked to is a great resource, Bill)

I chose to take the "100% green power" option with my electric utility provider NSTAR, so that's definitely NOT about personal cost savings, but is a "vote" of sorts to encourage nstar to keep supporting renewable energy. And as I mentioned I'll also confess to an addiction to no engine noise and gadget-y goodness as well. On the other hand I know I'll have daily free charging at my commuter rail station so I am happy that my day-to-day fuel costs will be minimized by that.

If I were ever to counsel someone considering the Leaf or the Volt or the PiP or something else my first piece of advice would be to fully understand their own personal motives for doing so. What are their priorities? What qualities do they value the most? That'll help clarify their research and then they can make a smart choice that works best for them.

 

Fuming from blatant undermining? Such obvious trolling isn't worth much to respond. You've may a valiant effort to belittle & insult the plug-in Prius and still have no victory to show for it. There's nothing to defend. The system works quite well. The need is fulfilled. However, this nonsense is an invitation to play offense. So, I will.

We've been through this many times in the past. Over the years, it's been intriguing to see the lengths some would go to. A few got very desperate. But in the end, they gave up. They didn't want to acknowledge requirements or even state goals. Finally coming to realize the true competition is traditional vehicles can is a humbling experience.

The most recent attack on PHV has been to claim liquid cooling is necessary. No evidence was provided. Heck, we didn't even get any data. It was just an empty statement. I got to do some more testing, in hotter weather pushing the EV system further. The temperature of the battery-pack remained the same, right at the comfort level of 100°F. There's nothing that has been presented to show concern about being able to keep it operating cool with just air. It's a scare attempt falling on deaf ears.

Then there's the other superiority claim of electricity usage. Even though there's data showing PHV is more efficient than others, the obscure reference to needing some electricity to hold the sun (MG1) power carrier in place keeps getting brought up. So what? The tiny amount of electricity needed is accounted for in the total consumption stated, which is still lower. Yet, with another plug-in, there's never any mention of the complexity used instead, having to utilize a clutch to allow the system to carry around a gas engine it goes out of it's way to avoid using. What about that waste?

There's no reason to have to deal with the obvious rants of a few anymore. The plug-in Prius is proving it's design & approach is capable of taking on the true competition. It would be great if others could do the same. But that's no reason for continuing to put it on the defensive without supporting data. It's pointless baiting. Give it up.

 

The push now is Cost-per-Mile, but the value used for the calculation is price paid rather than the actual cost to produce. That business model is unsustainable. A vehicle must be able to make a profit without dependency on tax-credit aid.

Then there's the blatant disregard for actual consumption. Stating a range of 6-11 miles is a obvious dodge to avoid acknowledgement of the capacity available. The electricity is still taken full advantage of, even when the engine runs.

Prius PHV clearly can hold its own in the competitive world of traditional vehicle sales.