It's official Toyota is full speed fuel cells for compliance after 2014

I'm not wrong because I'm not the one building the cars! I said earlier I thought it's retarded that none of these FCVs comes with a plug.....not the Honda, Hyundai or the Toyota. So they are the ones who are wrong here

Upgrading all CNG stations in the U.S. to 10,000 psi is expensive, true
The electricity to operate 10,000 psi pumps is also very expensive, true.
Ditto on both counts (and perhaps more so) for H2.

I think that's why Toyota chose compressed H2.
They're going to have a lot of filling stations out there sitting around, perhaps months, waiting for the first FCV to show up, since there are so few but Toyota would still want brag about 'coast-to-coast' drivability.
Liquid H2 would boil off within couple weeks, but compressed H2 should be good until the annual tank inspection.
I wonder if these tanks are sized to 10,000 gallons like gasoline tanks.?
I'll be following very closely to see how this is all going to be paid for, and by whom.

IIRC, premium can be up to $10,000, but beyond that a CNG HEV is less competitive with FCV or PHEV

Agreed 101%
I think Toyota's failure here is fait accompli.
Still, I applaud them for trying and building upon HSD.
Not quite at the same level of GM crushing the EV1 and introducing the Hummer H2 a decade ago.... but it sure will be interesting to look back at these comments in 2024 and see what's what

 

Huh? I understood home heating oil could be used to fuel many diesel vehicles. In Germany the use of home heating oil to fuel diesel cars was such a problem that the German government aided a special colored dye to the home heating oil supply (iirc) so that the police could simply insert a dipstick into the fuel tank and check for the dye. If the color indicated the use of home heating oil instead of the federally- taxed diesel fuel, the driver was given an immediate citation. My German relatives implied the fine was quite high as the government would assume you had been doing this for the period of ownership and fine accordingly. Oh, and the Polizei can stop you randomly on the road at any time and check such things.

 

That happens here too. We have what is known as 'red diesel' which is agricultural diesel and not taxed anywhere near as highly as road diesel. As it's name implies, it is red in colour as it is dyed to show up in your tank. Many taxi drivers would use it and the Police/Customs would suddenly pounce on you at the airport - blocking off a dozen taxis at a time. If you were found to have any in your car (and the dye would stick and could be detectable in very small traces months or years after it was last used!) tank, then you were in BIG trouble, impounding your car and insisting on paying back tax.

The red diesel has a higher sulphur level and could damage emission control devices on new diesel cars.

Many taxi drivers now mix vegetable oil with their diesel. A 5 litre tub of this costs about £2.50, compared to normal diesel costing about £1.35 a litre. Using pure vegetable oil causes issues in modern diesels, but most drivers would just use it in small quantities. Whether it was worth the hassle is very much debatable.

Hundreds of drivers pulled over in Huddersfield spot checks - Huddersfield Examiner

http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/Taxi-firm-caught-using-red-diesel-police-Customs-swoop-town/story-12578334-detail/story.html

 

Hm-m-m-m, looks like Hyundai just "scooped" Toyota with FC vehicles arriving in California already:

First hydrogen Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell CUVs arrive in California

 

I was tempted to reveal Toyotas next step past fuel cells would be car sized fusion chambers, hence the H2 commitment...

 

Cold Fusion...in a keg?

 

I was going to reply with some comment, but all I can thing about now is having a cold beer.

 

Using lithium batteries from laptop computers to power a 1 tonne+ vehicle is just simply absurd and I'm glad Toyota has finally pulled out of this concept and moving forward to something else that the market desires. The issue with BEV is the battery, everything else about the concept is perfect.

 

So how do you suggest a vehicle is powered? One that doesn't pollute the air we breath in our cities?

 

Well, I'm not smart enough to come with the solutions but I do know enough that pure BEV is not the answer and it looks like Toyota does as well. Maybe an evolved PHEV hybrid with integrated super capacitor to achieve 100mpg+? FCV? Gasp, maybe Nikola Tesla's Wardencliffe project?

 

Toyota isn't building upon the HSD as we know it. To them Hybrid Synergy Drive is just a branding slogan. The HSD in their FCV has as much in common with the one in the Prius in design and operation as the Prius with the RAV4 EV.

Same in the US in regards to the dye.
Home heating oil has a higher sulfur content than than the pre-USLD road fuel. It will wreck the catalytic converters for NOx control on a clean diesel. The increased sulfur content will also increase particulate emissions. Which will lead to to more DPF regenerations and clogging. The cetane rating of the heating oil may not meet the engines requirements also.

Old diesels could run it without a problem, but they could run vegetable oil, biodiesel, transmission fluid, used motor oil, etc. without much trouble too.

The German clean diesels here can use B5 and the American ones B20. Vegetable oil is thicker than biodiesel, so the cars might be able to handle less of it than the biodiesel if it weren't thinned with gasoline or something.

Hyundai is just leasing them. Toyota plans to actually sell theirs. Of course, the lease only path is an easy work around the fact that California hydrogen stations can't legally charge the consumer for the gas they dispense. Toyota hasn't answered on how they will get around that.

 

We can have the grand debate on EV vs fuel cells all we want. The bottom line is electric vehicles didn't sell. Sure, we got all the hipsters (with money) buying in. But that is a verrrry small market. The general public hasn't plugged into the same belief. It's true, most of my friends who aren't as hipster as the guys at priuschat are hesitant on buying a hybrid alone, and you want to convince them on EV? Good luck.

The bottom line is Toyotas let the numbers do the talking. EV just didn't sell for Toyota. If the public didnt buy EV vehicles despite year long marketing campaign then there is no sense plugging more money into it. If Toyota, the car manufacturer with an identity for making the greenist vehicles, how do you think the public will respond to say Lincoln attempting to make an attempt at an EV line? Marketing data probably suggests that it probably wouldn't go too well. I'm sure Toyota thought long and hard about this decision. I'm sure they hired an entire marketing firm to find out what the public wants. And apparently, its not EV. At least not for Toyota.

 

Yes, exactly!
Because taking expensive solar energy and then losing half of it in electrolysis and another half in the cell stack is brilliant!
25% of the energy will actually result in motive power in a FCV versus 90%+ in a EV......how "absurd" is that?
And building BILLIONS of dollars of [Natural Gas->Hydrogen facilities] isn't absurd!
Are you ready to pony up your tax dollars to pay for them?
I'm not......because I already have that exotic technology in my house called a "wall outlet"

Please tell me about any 'market's desire' for FCV's.
Then, please compare this 'desire' to that for the Tesla Model S.
You do realize the Model S battery can be swapped in 90 seconds for a fully charged pack, right?
You might want to read this:
Fuel Cell Vehicles: Hype or Hope? : Greentech Media

If you don't know the solutions, then you don't the answer.
It seems you'd rather drive around with an extreme pressure 10,000 pound-per-square inch fuel tank, containing a gas that's flammable, explosive and made from rapidly depleting resources.
I, on the other hand, would rather drive with a "1-tonne" (it's actually less than half that) battery in my car that makes it SAFER:
Crash test: Hybrids safer than other cars - CBS News
And, it can be powered by renewables. To each his own; if I'm driving a 10,000 psi tank, it better be filled with CNG and not Hydrogen

Yes, we here at PC are all "hipsters with money".
I'm going to tell you what.
The reason Toyota is pushing FCV's is because they cater to the "Old Fart" crowd. Perhaps this is the demographic you belong to? Because that is the demographic Toyota "studied".
It's true. There were millions of people born around the world between 1946 and 1964 (Baby Boomers) and they will be around till mid-century.
I guess Toyota figures that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks". So, these people have to pump liquid fuel into their cars.........it's all they are used to, and they're going to keep it up till the day they die.
I mean, the amount of TIME and EFFORT it takes to plug in your car when you get home from work........it could take 30 seconds out of your day!
Oh, the humanity!
Please, please Toyota, save us from this tyranny! Yes, we'll spend BILLIONS on infrastructure just to avoid using those pesky wall outlets

Well, your friends aren't very bright, are they? They're hesitant about hybrids, but they are willing to pump a liquid fuel that's -420 degrees fahrenheit or that's compressed to 10,000 pounds per square inch?
Do your friends realize that the fuel-cell car still is a hybrid with a battery? Do you?

The irony here is that Toyota has actually done more to promote EV's (well, plug-in cars) than just about anyone.
Why? Because of their success of the Prius and hybrids.
It took some getting used to, but millions of people around the world are now comfortable with the car shutting off the engine at stoplights and coasting in silence on battery power.
That's why it baffles me that Toyota thinks they can't get used to plugging in. The public readily adopts new technology, especially the younger generations......look how smart phones and tablets took off in just 5 years.
All of today's hybrid drivers are tomorrows PHEV or EV drivers.
The minute one gets behind the wheel of a hybrid, one can immediately understand the benefit of plugging in to get even more MPG.
NO one is begging to pump liquid hydrogen, and FCV's will ALWAYS lose to a PHEV.

 

[quote="austingreen, quote]
Well, your friends aren't very bright, are they? They're hesitant about hybrids, but they are willing to pump a liquid fuel that's -420 degrees fahrenheit or that's compressed to 10,000 pounds per square inch?
Do your friends realize that the fuel-cell car still is a hybrid with a battery? Do you? [/quote]

Austingreen you're a very naughty boy. Didn't your mother ever teach you anything about manners? Did she? I assure you, me and my group of friends are brighter than you. The group of my friends I was referring to hold doctorates, are medical professionals, are engineers, are bankers. My roommate owns a Ford Raptor with huge nice person wheels and he just bought a M3. When it comes to car buying, it comes to personal preference, not how bright you are. I hope your interpersonal skills in real life are better than they are online. Are they? How do you resort to name calling on a post about Toyota simply not selling enough EVs it to be worth their time? Its the second time you have done that. No offense, but I didn't read your post. After a while, it becomes white wash. You're obviously an EV fanatic with the everything I say is right and you're wrong mentality. Cya.

 

Considering you got the wrong poster, that is open to debate.