GM to Offer Hydrogen-Powered Vehicles in Four-Year

I can't help but think there's a matter of perspective here. For you, hybrids are certainly a step back from EVs, but for most of us, they're the closest thing to an EV we've ever owned. And I think that, for whatever reasons, the first iteration of EVs never reached critical mass, but hybrids now have crossed that threshold, and they will eventually lead to a successful reintroduction of EVs. Here's hoping, indeed!

 

Agreed on all these counts!

The beauty of EVs is that so many people *could* make their own "fuel" locally too. Can't do that with gas! Because of this and many other reasons (off-peak charging, reduced use of electricity for gasoline production, etc) the "additional load on the grid" is not something to be afraid of. The grid managed to grow to accomodate gasoline and gas stations when we needed it!

 

Yup. You nailed it. It is ALL about perspective. That's what this line in the following post was supposed to mean:

"A small step forward for most, a big step backwards for a lucky few."

And I am thrilled about the big demand of hybrids. If nothing else, it means that there are a bunch of folks out there who care enough to pay for what they think is right. Flies in the face of Ford and GM saying about their SUVs, "Hey, we aren't to blame. We're just building what American drivers want."

 

We are dealing with basic human psychology. People don't like being insecure and so don't like change. They avoid risks and the unknown, few have the American spirit of adventure anymore. Everyone is so comfy, spoiled and wants to play it safe.

We truely are addicted to oil. Its just too easy and we've done it that way so long, a better way is not concievable.

We are dealing with breaking out of the fossil fuel age into the electric and nuclear age.

Its a big jump if you think about it. Instead of being propelled by explosions of fossil fuel we will be cruising on the quiet energy of electricity.

Thats the new age... it will make gasoline engines be only a memory of primitive stinky transportation.

The Electric has so many more advantages..... besides tremendous torque and quietness, it has no byproducts to leave and spew into the air.

What if your refrigerator and all your appliances in your home had to be gas driven because thats all we knew?.. How stinky would your house be?.... yet we stink up our world and think nothing of it.

Everything could convert to it if we just would. There is plenty of energy all around us if we would only capture it. Instead of acres of ground growing soy or wheat for bio for fuel, we could be collecting solar for fuel and saving our ground.

I have gone into great depth about the possiblities of alternative energy before so I will spare you this time.

We have to stop looking for the reasons why we can't do these things and look for why we can.

Necessity is the mother of invention and as long as we keep sucking the oil bottle and refused to be weaned, we will not move onto solid foods that provide better energy for our long term sustainance.

 

Beautiful.

 

Well said windstrings

I don't know of another energy supply that I can make at home practically on a continuous basis. Just the fact that I could will either keep the cost down or make it worth while to make my own.

 

other sources of energy are all over. the gym i go to has cycles, steppers and zero impact cross country skiers that all use "people power" to run. the person supplies the energy, its converted to electricity and it runs the display.

i cant even begin to tell you how many conversations have taken place on "conspiracy" theories...as in how much Bally's was saving on their electricity bill on our sweat...hehehe

 

Now lets introduce another propulsion ysytem into the discussion...magnetic power. Isn't this what our visitors on UFO's use? It's also free for the taking and unlimited. Frank Hudson and Jayman?

 

John:

Ok I'll bite. Energy production and storage can involve many novel forms. Around 20 years ago when theorists brought up flywheel storage systems - running inside a special case kept in vacuum to reduce friction losses - I had a good laugh.

Now we have companies like Caterpillar selling a flywheel UPS paired to a diesel backup generator. By replacing all those lead-acid batteries with a flywheel, enormous operating cost savings are possible (Eliminate battery replacement, far cheaper to spin the flywheel than keep float charge on batteries, fits in much tighter space, etc).

I've already seen the prototype carbon nanotube devices and they promise huge potential to also replace batteries. The energy density is out of sight, quick recharge is possible, and long life potential are all there.

As far as "magnetic" energy, the conventional 3 phase electric motor now delivers. The problem is, it has a rotor and a stator, there is a huge moving part involved. That spinning mass takes energy - work - to run, and that energy is wasted as it could be applied to the load.

I'm not a theorist and don't pretend to be one. Though I have always imagined something that can provide work from magnetic force, without the penalty of a huge rotating mass.

As far as UFO's, apparently the American taxpayer has shoveled out tens of billions for a chunk of barren Nevada real estate to store and test these gadgets. I have no doubt many innovative gadgets have been developed there.

Consider that something as advanced as the SR-71 Blackbird was developed with early 1950's technology. Similar development in the area of power generation/storage/transportation would literally be earth shaking.

After 2 years of Prius ownership, I'm convinced such a car could have been on the roads at least 15 years earlier. The M/G and inverter/converter are very similar to industrial variable frequency motor drives.

The software and processing power required to make such a car work would obviously not been as sophisticated, so the prehistoric Prius would have been a bit clunky. But imagine if such a "Manhatten Project" had been applied to energy efficiency, instead of weapons development, or even the ad revenue from advertising schlocky products on television.

jay

 

Humm... Magnetic!.... now theres a subject we haven't explored much!....

Tap into the earth magnetic flux.... we've had a ton of discussions on this before.....

your right, there is a ton of energy all around us!.. we just need some incentive, encouragement and motivation to explore and harness these avenues without being laughed to scorn....
Inventors need to know they will be rewarded if they do a good job.

However, I have seen to many half backed cakes for sale too... for big bucks too no less!....

If your gonna invent something.. it needs to be usable and useful "before" you try to sell it, not necessarily "perfect" but usable so we can build upon the good idea. Too many inventors try to get consumers to fund thier beta projects and only give the customer a bad taste in thier mouth and incite fear "like the plug in fear" because it didn't work well when it was first presented.

Some of that was not the inventors fault... it could be a lack of storage medium "batteries" to finalize the successfull project.

Timing is everthing....
Its like building a house, you can get the plumbing, sheetrock and the roof on, but until the electrical gets done first, the sheetrock was a waste of time if you did it first?

The hybrid era is the same way... we have alot of the technology in many areas, but are still retarded in other areas waiting for those issues to catch up.

Lets invent some awesome efficency solar cells that are light....... I could list hundreds of suggestions......

Many folks like myself just have bright Ideas but haven't the expertise and nohow to pull it off, others that do have the knowledge won't because they don't trust a fickle public market. Bankers will only support a sure deal.

My hat is off the the billionaire who is trying to play with ufo technology.... maybe he will acheive nothing, but another man can build off of his technology.... look what we did with Edisons discoveries!

Some people are fire starters and others follow in behind to harness the blaze to make a useful wood stove that can heat your water and home or power a locomotive, and then there are some who just love to put out the fires by throwing cold water on a new idea......

We need people with vision and guts to try the unknown without fear of reprisal.....

Thats why I get so excited and really try to support and build up those who invent a good thing.... but I hate those who take advantage of a noble dream and rape the novice customer with snake oil and only give other good inventors a bad name.

 

Humm... Magnetic!.... now theres a subject we haven't explored much!....

Tap into the earth magnetic flux.... we've had a ton of discussions on this before.....

your right, there is a ton of energy all around us!.. we just need some incentive, encouragement and motivation to explore and harness these avenues without being laughed to scorn....
Inventors need to know they will be rewarded if they do a good job.

However, I have seen to many half backed cakes for sale too... for big bucks too no less!....

If your gonna invent something.. it needs to be usable and useful "before" you try to sell it, not necessarily "perfect" but usable so we can build upon the good idea. Too many inventors try to get consumers to fund thier beta projects and only give the customer a bad taste in thier mouth and incite fear "like the plug in fear" because it didn't work well when it was first presented.

Some of that was not the inventors fault... it could be a lack of storage medium "batteries" to finalize the successfull project.

Timing is everthing....
Its like building a house, you can get the plumbing, sheetrock and the roof on, but until the electrical gets done first, the sheetrock was a waste of time if you did it first?

The hybrid era is the same way... we have alot of the technology in many areas, but are still retarded in other areas waiting for those issues to catch up.

Lets invent some awesome efficency solar cells that are light....... I could list hundreds of suggestions......

Many folks like myself just have bright Ideas but haven't the expertise and nohow to pull it off, others that do have the knowledge won't because they don't trust a fickle public market. Bankers will only support a sure deal.

My hat is off the the billionaire who is trying to play with ufo technology.... maybe he will acheive nothing, but another man can build off of his technology.... look what we did with Edisons discoveries!

Some people are fire starters and others follow in behind to harness the blaze to make a useful wood stove that can heat your water and home or power a locomotive, and then there are some who just love to put out the fires by throwing cold water on a new idea......

We need people with vision and guts to try the unknown without fear of reprisal.....

Thats why I get so excited and really try to support and build up those who invent a good thing.... but I hate those who take advantage of a noble dream and rape the novice customer with snake oil and only give other good inventors a bad name.

 

I'm not negative about ev's as I deal with them on a daily basis. Plug one in and leave it for 5-8 hours to get 6-8 hours of work out of it or drive to the propane refill station and take 7 minutes to fill one (timed it) and get 5-7 hour work out of it. Then if you work two shifts per day you need another battery to swap out the dead one with, best I've done on that task start to finish is 17 minutes. I'd take a propane unit any day of the week. I noticed that GM cancelled the EV project, I'm not sure what that really said. Government funding stopped? Next time I see the neighbour and his wife I'll ask them.

 

Not sure what biz you're in... but here's an article that may be of interest for what it is worth:
converting ground fleet from gas to electric

But we're all over the map here now!

First off, I thought we were concentrating on personal vehicle transportation. For every application, there is the right tool for the job. An EV might not be the right tool for the job you're doing. (That said, all you need to add is fast charging as many airports now employ). My main point is that a BEV is the right tool for commuting - the job that MOST people put most miles on their cars doing.

Next, while this thread was about the viability of GM's promised FCV... I was attempting to show that there is little reason to be wasting the time, money and effort on FCV's when we have (or could have) BEVs RIGHT NOW that do everything better, and do it all cheaper than the "promised" FCVs. Now, if you have a FCV that outperforms your BEVs at work you do, I'd like to hear about them.

And Finally (I hope, as I'm sure others do as well) - you bring up a great point about propane/NG. IF ANYBODY can answer me why all car makers except for Honda have terminated their NG programs to concentrate on FCV's, I'm all ears. We have the infrastructure in place, and we have the technology. What the hell does FC technology buy us that burning NG directly in an ICE can't give us? We first convert NG to another energy carrier that is WAY harder to store and tranasport, then convert it back to something useful in the vehicle... and at the end of the day we've thrown out 1/4 of the energy that started out in the NG... HUH?

 

Frank, its funny you talked about propane... I can remember in the 70's when propane was supposed to be what was going to save the day on energy!.... oh well....

It would really upset the kiddy cart for us to figure out means to get free power...
Its gonna have to come in the back door before its allowed.

what do I mean by that?.... right now we could put bucks into battery research and bring into being technology thats already coming about anyway "finally".. that technology is batteries that can charge in 5 minutes and collect enough power to propel a car many miles.
Big business has no incentive to cut thier own throats by enabling us with the means to have our own power and be free from thier domain.

But if the battery technology comes with expensive rigs that are hybrids and have strings attached so that we still are dependent upon the big guy, then there will be a market for the batteries and they will be made in abundance, then it will be an easy switch to convert and break free.

I hate to even write this stuff for fear they will read it and get red flags... but they are not stupid and I'm sure they have already considered it..... the fact is they cannot stop it!...

When people get together on thier own and invent and release what the big guy will not, they have no choice but to let it run or hire a hit man, or buy them out.

How would the drug lords react if you could release a way to remove all addiction and craving for illicit drugs?.. do you think they would want that released for the betterment of mankind?..... Heck no!

The same spirit of greed drives the cigarette companies, oil, drugs, any product to which we have become dependent upon, those who market it do not want a cure.

Even the cure would create another problem... we would all be dependent upon the cure?

Anyway.. enough philosophy.... if we can tap into what is free all around us, the oil guys will have to sell hamburgers!

But like I've said many times before, as long as we are using anything that they can control the supply of, we will pay their price for it....

They cannot charge us for air, because its free.
Energy is free too, its given every day from the sun and captured on earth in many forms for us to harness... its ashamed we pay for energy because we will not harness whats already there?

Hydrogen could be a very powerful storage medium..... but how does that help our pocketbook unless we can do it all ourselves?

The big guy will still have us by the gonads?... look at diesel?.. its 80 cents more than gas and cost less to make?.. it was supposed to be our savior too.. until eveybody started buying diesel, so they simply raised the price until demand fell?

Look at Propane?... same thing.. was supposed to be cheaper, cleaner, more abundant.. they simply refuse to let us be free from oil that makes the bucks for them. They simply raised the price of that too until demand fell.

As long as we can get oil, thats what they want us to buy because the system is already set up for it. They don't want to mess with success and reinvent the wheel and retool everything.......

Hey when you can sell hot cakes like crazy, why switch to bananas?

Until we all take advantage of solar, wind and hydro we will NEVER be free.
I don't care how abundant whatever fuel is on the planet.... unless WE can harvest it ourselves and utilize it, they will always control us.


They are not worried about us now because we are vastly outnumbered... just like the first hybrid owners and EV... but now that its starting to catch on.... their nervous and trying to figure out a plan to botch it so they don't have to start buying round steak instead of T-bone!

The real key here is not so much how to capture it, but how to store it for use later.
But the key to get the ball rolling is captureing it.

There is a vast market there left to be explorered. Make solar or wind kits easy for people to install or even install yourselves.
Solar is the most trouble free.... wind has moving parts to deal with, but in an excellent spot cannot be denied.

Thats how telephones came into being, cell phones, internet, satellite etc..... they made kits and installed for free for a fee to use the service in every home.

This would be a fee to set up and then its free.. period! only maintainence costs.. and if set up right, they would be negliable.

It makes me mad to be on the brink of so much cool technology but not be able to access it.... but at least we get to play with our prius!

You see how fun it is to be able to monitor your energy consumption and alter it with the prius, its just as addicting when you can make your own power for your house and are able to monitor its use too.

 

that creates a job for everybody so they all get a piece of the action.

As long as they can make it look like they have to manipulate it, add something to it, clean it, transit it, or convert it, they all get a piece of the action and the customer pays through the nose for something that is very cheap to make.

Kinda like Nike makes a shoe for a few cents and by the time it gets to us, its rediculous what they charge.

Mankind has always had scams of how to get more out of our neighbor for less work, or how to cheat, or now to get a piece of the action.

Taking energy and using it at its pure form is NOT what they want us to be able to do!
Its just all talk and no action, they will not enable people to access the technology thats already there.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not we versed in solar, but aren't those wafers made out of silicone? or basically a sand type product thats as plentiful as water?

Every roof in america could by PV instead of shinges or at least over the shingles..... it wouldn't even cost much if it was done on that common of a basis?
What a waste!.. Instead the sun beats down on our shingles and we use energy to cool it back down inside?
We could be heating all our water and making PV at the same time? and in the process our house would be cooler.

I'm thinking of buying a nice piece of land and having most of my backyard as a PV array... I will have to move south first of course!
I've already done the hydro gig, and my wife will not move where its cold and damp anymore!

Everyone out here who loves the thrill of the prius would love the PV adventure too!
The work is already done for us with the prius, but that takes away alot of the fun!...

darelldd, you know exactly what I'm talking about!... its a kick to make a hobby out of being independent from the man!

guys like me and you just need to figure an easy way to make it easy for others and we will not only have a blast doing it, it would be quite profitable freeing others from dependence upon the man too!

Its not for everybody though..... Some are some who are just not made for it and it would be a nightmare to set anyone up that didn't want to learn the system and take responsibility for it!.. But there are many out there that just need a little help from their friends! :lol:

 

the fork lift industry. And I totally agree with you on Hydrogen, as most of it is converted from NG by electrolyses. Why use one energy source and apply another energy source to convert it to another energy source it's totally ludicrous. And without a distribution network in place is even dumber than the bag the hammers came in. Then there is the short time before failure on FC stacks and most anybody that can add see’s their not a solution but part of the problem. I’ve driven NG vehicles and most are not blessed with excess power and have the same fuelling infrastructure problems that H have, virtually non existent. I only have one car for my personal transportation and it has to be able to go where ever and when ever I want and if that’s 1500 or 15 miles tomorrow well it’s a Prius. I’m glad your happy with your RAV but it’s not for me. Also in one of your posts you mentioned a slight jerkiness at extremely low speed we notice it on the 80 volt AC electric trucks. Do you estimate the motor rpm to be in the 5-10 rpm range? I’m wondering if Toyota uses the same controller setup on the RAV.

 

Actually, we got a lot more out of Nikola Tesla than Edison. Tesla was into AC and 3-phase power, Edison was stuck in this mindset of DC only. Of course, for reasonable transporation of electricity, AC won out.

For some sad reason, everybody pointedly ignored Tesla and lavished praise on Edison. It "helped" that Edison could be a slick salesman and Tesla had very broken english with a thick Serbian accent.

Oh, ironically, Tesla was actually *employed* at Edison's labs. Edison apparently reneged on some promises and - in true Capitalist fashion - royally screwed Tesla.

 

Well, see. I have both. What could be better? Except maybe having both options in ONE vehicle.

Yes, it is about 5-10 RPM. This is something that *could* have been smoothed out through software. But since these were designed as "utility fleet" vehicles, there was really no reason to make them perfectly acceptable to the consumer. With that in mind, it is amazing how good for familiy use that they turned out to be. The low speed stuff is a cogging of the magnets. The controller doesn't do anything to stop it, though it *could.* A second generation of the vehicle would be been stellar.

 

All right, lets for the sake of clarity ignore EVs for the moment and talk about the hydrogen and natural gas point you bring up.

Its true that in the long term, producing hydrogen from natural gas or by consuming any fossil fuel is kind of pointless. However, where your thinking is flawed is the point at which you look at the near term solution and declare it to be the long term solution.

(Again, just bear with me right now and ignore EVs. I know it's hard to do, but please try) Right now all passenger vehicles run off of gasoline (or diesil), which is a fossil fuel. As long as new cars that consume only gasoline (or diesil) continue to be produced, we will be tied forever to using fossil fuels.

However, as soon as you change cars from directly consuming fossil fuels such as gasoline into cars that directly consume hydrogen, then you add a point in the flow of energy at which a car's dependency on fossil fuels can be broken.

Gasoline can only be produced from fossil fuels. Hydrogen can be produce by a number of means, some of which are fossil fuel based and some of which are renewable. Even if in the short term, hydrogen is produced most readily from natural gas, the hydrogen fuel cell still makes sense, because it allows for renewable hydrogen sources to be phased in later.

Bring hydrogen fuel cell vehicles into the market and maybe for the first 8 years they are still dependent 100% on hydrogen produced using fossil fuels. Then maybe the year after that it is 90% fossil fuels and 10% renewable. Then the year after that 80% fossil fuels, 20% renewable. And so on, and so on, and so on...

(You can now think about EVs again)

 

I looked at this and wondered if Toyota had made the pickup rotor with twice or three times the number of teeth if the controller would have sensed the number of pulses and switched quicker and eliminated the pulsing of the armature? Maybe maybe not but it sure wouldn't have hurt. Thanks for the info.