If the ICE motor is rated @ 73hp, the Electric @ 60hp and TractionBattery @ 26hp, how is total=99hp?

Discussion in 'Prius c Technical Discussion' started by FRENZIED, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. FRENZIED

    FRENZIED Junior Member

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    I don't understand the total rated power output for the Prius C. If the ICE motor is rated at 73hp, the Electric motor @ 60hp and the Traction-Battery @ 26hp, how is the total 99hp? Shouldn't it at least be 133hp (60+73)?
     
  2. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Where do you think the electric motor is getting its power?

    It comes from a mixture of the ICE (73) + the battery (26), which together are limited to 99. That electric motor 60 hp is not additional power, but is already counted in the others. Don't double-count it.
     
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  3. FRENZIED

    FRENZIED Junior Member

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    I still don't get it. Perhaps it's a question requiring an engineering degree to understand.
     
  4. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    Electric motor and generator is used to deliver a gear ratio. You don't need engineering degree just high school logic ;)

    For the Prius to get a proper gear ratio, power from the ICE is split by the planetary gear (similar to differential), one part goes through mechanical part, the other through generator that is feeding the electric motor. That is why the electric motor is oversized, because at full acceleration it must take the power from generator and power from the battery.

    In this animation you can play with sliders, it's for the gen 1 Prius but logic is the same:
    Toyota Prius - Power Split Device
     
  5. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Another way to think of it is that while the ICE can produce 73 HP, only a part of that takes a direct mechanical path to the wheels. The rest flows through an electrical path through a generator (MG1) to that 60 HP electric motor (MG2). When counting total power, you are not allowed to count this electric path power twice, only once, and it was already counted back at the ICE.

    Another way to think is to look at choke points. In the current configuration, the electric motor (MG2) is not a choke point. Boosting it to 1000 HP will add nothing because there isn't any more electricity available from the battery and ICE generator (MG1) to drive it.
     
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  6. mahout

    mahout Active Member

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    It might help if you think of the power supply to running the car is gained from only 2 places: the internal combustion 1.5 liter displacement engine getting its power from burning gasoline and from a variable speed electric motor with potential of 60 hp but the motor gets the power to run it from a battery which has the maximum power output controlled at 19.3 kilowatts or 25.9 hp (134 amps). The variable speed motor can run no better than the electric power provided it so the total power to run the C is 73 + 25.9 = 98.9 hp. The size of the electric motor is reasonably immaterial. The battery output is controlled to a maximum of 144 volts and 135 amps; wonder what it would take to output 40 kw at 277 amps, which would produce 39.88 kw or 53.3 hp and a total power of 73 + 53.8 = 126 hp. Hmmmm. Just how is the output of the battery controlled by that computer ? Course that means battery life is pretty much halved.
    Again, for those that asked, a C at 105 mph is traveling 9240 feet per minute and the gear ratio of the transaxle CVT is 3.19 to 1 so the engine is turning 4803 rpm. Its the engine that controls top speed because its far and away the major power source.
    Only trucks get their maximum power at 4800 rpm so I wonder what would happen if the cams and ECU were reworked to provide 100 hp....? And boost battery output to 53 hp for a total of 153 hp... Just what would have to be replaced besides cams, ECU and motor controller ... Fuel pump maybe ? Turbo maybe, (my personal choice after all turbos are nowdays quite effective for low rpm engines)...
    Boy, would I like to get into the Toyota (Yamaha) engine development group ... If Toyota showed a 415 hp Yaris hybrid at the Paris auto show I cannot be unconvinced Toyota hasn't considered a 150 hp Prius C. After all, if Porsche has a 918 and Ferrari has LaFerrari why ont a Prius C150 so those of us without a spare $850,000 can enjoy a sporty hybrid getting 40 mpg for $29,000. While Porsche and Ferrari count their market on their fingers Toyota has millions in their market. Thats one heck of a profit potential not even including the halo effect.
    Ain't bench racing fun.
     
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  7. ztanos

    ztanos All-around Geek!

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    Different curve values for the HP and Torque curve as well. The electric motor makes all its power at the beginning of its power band, while the ICE makes the majority of its power at the end of its power band. You get best results at the middle of both.
     
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  8. mahout

    mahout Active Member

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    Most electric motors produce max torque at startup rpm but max horsepower is the input for top speed, not torque (which is the input for acceleration). A 25 hp motor at 3600 rpm produces 36 lb ft of torque which is certainly added to the 80 lb-ft of the ICE at 4800 rpm for a total of 116 lb-ft. Thats more than enough to yield 99 hp. While engines generally have torque peaks about 75% of hp peak, an electric motor has pretty constant torque after that peak at startup where the current is hig compared to steady running speed. So its most likely the maximum power band occurs at the maximum of the ICE torque band.
     
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  9. FRENZIED

    FRENZIED Junior Member

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    Ok, NOW I get it. Thanks for the good explanations, everybody. I could not figure it for anything, at first. I also didn't realize there were two electric motors, which confused me even more. That little animation at eahart help as well (I stared at that for 30 or so minutes... LOL). VERY curious thing, this Prius is.
     
  10. mahout

    mahout Active Member

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    Two electric motors ?
     
  11. Prius_Cub

    Prius_Cub Member

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    Yup, MG1 and MG2.

    HTC Evo 3D
     
  12. flotowngtm

    flotowngtm Junior Member

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    Question?
    So by what I see here the MG2 powers the wheels
    The ICE powers MG1 that recharges the batteries???????
    As from the animation shows that the ICE does not have any effect on wheel speed.
    And the MG1 spinning in either direction charges the batteries?
    Am I correct???
     
  13. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    ^^ There are several different operating modes.

    Commonly, the ICE power is split between a direct mechanical path to the wheels, and MG1. Some of that MG1 power goes to the battery, some goes to MG2 which also powers the wheels. This mechanical / electrical power split is how Toyota effectively creates a CVT without a traditional mechanical CVT.

    While the ICE speed is not directly tied to wheel speed, it does send plenty of torque (and thus power) to the wheels.
     
  14. flotowngtm

    flotowngtm Junior Member

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    Got it thanks!
     
  15. mahout

    mahout Active Member

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    Ignore the 2 electric motors; there's only one. The second 'motor' is converting rotation of the wheels/crankshaft to electric current to charge the battery and ths isn't really a motor. it should be called a generator. And if that motor torque goes to the wheels it better be connected to them. The ICE can generate 73 hp and motor assisting the ICE is contributing its controlled maximum of 25 hp so the total is 98 hp.
     
  16. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    it is certainly true that only one M/G is acting as a Motor at one time, most usually M/G2. Heretical Mode is when M/G1 acts as a motor and M/G2 as a generator.

    Whats Going On As I Drive?
    How the PSD is like a Differential
     
  17. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Both are 'motor-generators'. Each can operate as either motor or generator, depending on which of the numerous modes the car is using at any particular moment.
    Both MGs and the ICE are connected together by gears, so all are involved in sending torque to the wheels.
     
  18. hieronymous

    hieronymous Member

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    That's only one of the modes of MG1.

    How do you think the ICE is started? It's turned over by MG1 acting as a motor.

    When the ICE is running, if MG1 was idle, then the ICE torque would just spin MG1 and the car would sit there. But MG1 is instead put in motor mode to provide counter-acting torque against the ICE, which transfers the ICE torque to the ring gear, and hence the wheels.

    MG1 is certainly a motor!
     
  19. priusCpilot

    priusCpilot Active Member

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    The total HP is 99 then what is total torque?
     
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  20. mahout

    mahout Active Member

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    Per prior post I estimate 116 lb-ft.
     
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