Diesel vehicles beat out gasoline-powered cars in low ownership costs

Not a word on the maintenance required for the diesel subsystems. Ask any VW or Merc owner.

 

One of my car pool co-workers has a TDI. He keeps telling me it costs an arm & a leg to keep his TDI up to snuff. Wondering if that's the norm - I read this at "consumer reports":
Living with a VW Jetta TDI: Weighing diesel fuel economy benefits against eventual maintenance costs

... and this person is comparing against a 28mpg gas burner's economy? That's about half what I get in the Gen II Prius ... and regular cost a bit less than diesel fuel to boot . . . . so . . . I duno.

.

 

They should be comparing to a comparable gas powered VW and MB. Otherwise, they could just compare a Geo Metro to a hybrid and proclaim a hybrid saves no money versus a gas powered car.

 

Or apparently you can DIY it for much less.

How to DIY DSG transmission fluid change on VW TDI or Audi TDI

VW dealers have a horrible rep for some reason.

I don't know why people keep doubting the economics of diesel. If you ignore the current Catch 22 package premiums, the price differential really isn't that great and the torquey engines provide plenty for both lead-footed and efficient drivers (Wayne Gerdes and Bob Winger recently broke the 48 state record with 77.99mpg in a Passat TDI). Conventional gasoline vehicles should really be the option for drivers with low miles per year. The fact that the economics work out even with the lower-quality fuel, higher emissions standards and fuel tax disadvantage says a lot about the relative efficiencies of the engines.

With Chrysler, GM and Mazda adding to the diesel market I think it'll gradually grow and hopefully that growth will eventually turn diesel into just another option.*

* Assuming we don't get cheap lithium batteries that cause a huge electrification of the fleet.

 

From the article:

The study authors relied on information from several government agencies, including the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Federal Highway Safety Administration, to find data on average number of miles driven, prices and values for new and used vehicles, and average miles per gallon. They also consulted information on insurance, maintenance and taxes among other factors from Vincentric, which analyzes ownership data. All car prices were adjusted to 2011 dollars using the consumer price index.

What kind of "study" would consider those factors, but not the price of diesel? It's been at or near premium for years now. Why is it that the same crowd who always complained about a long -or impossible- 'payback period' for hybrids never mentions this for a clean-diesel system?

In the case of hybrids, you simply have to drive enough miles, you break even - end of story.
In a diesel, you have to drive enough miles AND hope and pray the differential between diesel and gas is not greater than your efficiency gain. There are TWO variables to overcome, and the 2nd is not even in your control!

I said it before, and I'll say it again: diesel is an expensive dead-end for well-to-do-but-mathematiclally challenged ego-manicas, a.k.a. drivers of German luxury cars. Who also happen to have the most diesels. No coincidence.

Oh, 1 more thing: resale value is based not just on the longevity of diesel, but also its perceived fuel economy benefits. If those fail to materialize due to high diesel prices, the resale value will drop accordingly. I doubt this "study" considered that either.

 

*Sigh* For $deity's sake, an article about a study by a journalist is not a study.

http://www.dieselforum.org/files/dmfile/20130311_CD_UMTRITCOFinalReport_dd2017.pdf

And I ...

Of course, your inverter could blow, or your battery can die shortly after the warranty expires and then the subsequent batteries that only have a one year warranty could have a short life. $3,000/150,000mi = $0.02/mi.

Or it could be for the 96.5% of people who apparently don't want to buy a hybrid despite the excellent TCO.

Resale would also fall if conventional cars continue to see improvements. I'm sure they didn't take that into account either, given that they were using real historic data rather than making guesses about the future.

 

In Australia, the media just completed one of the most brutal bashing of VW, refer to related articles:
Death prompts VW owners to speak out
Volkswagen Driver Claims VW Threatened His Job Over Fault
Volkswagen upsets consumer groups over fault issues | News.com.au
VW Golf Loses Speed | Volkswagen Golf Problem | Melissa Ryan Inquest

The reason the Fairfax Media got unto VW was because they found DSGs and diesel injectors that were part of recall program oversea (USA, Japan, China, Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, etc.) but not in Australia. There were a huge number of angry owners (probably still small relative to the # of cars sold) including a personal friend got sucked into buying a diesel with a DSG due to glowing/rav reviews, but spent the last 3 years regretting ditching her trusty Camry for a dud.

VW Australia Group then cut their advertising with Fairfax media when the news broke out about the recalls. VAG finally succumbed to public pressure and recalled the DSGs, but still no words with their faulty Diesel injectors. Thank God I didn't buy a Golf back in 2009!

 

Normally, diesel fuel cost at least 10 cents more per gallon in the Washington DC Metro Area. So while you can hypermile a VW Passat TDI with a Manual Transmission can achieve fuel efficiency in the same range as the Toyota Prius Liftback with a CVT or Prius c with a CVT which is using E10 gas - the higher cost per gallon for diesel tends to negates diesel base vehicle's total fuel cost.

The VW Passat as a car doesn't have stop-idle technology like the Prius so a driver must manually turn off the car and turn it on when hypermiling and manually switch back and forth from drive to neutral and back to drive - so it takes more work and more skill to hypermile a VW Passat with a manual transmission than a Prius which does most of the work automatically if you adjust the accelerator correctly.

On top of that... a VW Passat TDI when driven normally will likely get the fuel efficiency close to the EPA rating which is considerably less that the Prius Liftback or the Prius c.

Gasoline engines start faster and are more reliable in below freezing temperature than Diesel because gasoline has a lower freezing point than diesel. In below freezing temperatures, a diesel engine may need an electric engine block heater.

A Manual Transmission like that on a VW Diesel vehicle are better for towing than Continously Variable Transmissions( CVT) like on a Toyota Prius.

The Prius is a cleaner car than the Passat TDI. Its emissions is half of Passat TDI

comparing the two feels unfair - the tech differences and design compromises are significant.

ISTM it is more difficult than ever to be a DIY auto mechanic - in my younger days - I did most of own regular auto maintenance stuff like change the oil, oil filter, spark plugs, and so forth... So far I've use the points on my Toyota Visa card to help pay for my trips to the dealership ....

 

Yes. Operative word: "could" .......seems like you are speculating here, whereas below you chided me for speculating about what happens with resale values. You said I should use hard, historic data.
Fine. Let's do that with batteries.
Fact: There are many, many examples of Prii having lasted 250,000+ miles in taxi service.
Fact: My local cab company had a Prius last 380,000 miles, battery still good.
Fact: Ten-Year Old Toyota Hybrid Priuses Defy Early Critics
Fact: Warranty replacements have been less than .1%

For some reason, the battery is always a red herring with the diesel crowd. Get over it. The NiMH battery is bullet-proof, built to stay in the middle 50% of charge, and always at the right temp. It will outlive the car.....and probably continue to serve as backup power for a utility after that.

Yes, hybrids currently command a 3.5% share of the market. After being on the market for just 13 years. How long have diesels been around? 113 years? Unless you want to count from the intro of clean diesels, hybrids are very, very new (and gas prices have been low for most of that time). Market share is, and will continue, to go up. Hybrids have also been uniquely styled (Prius, 1st-gen Insight) to work around early limitations in the technology. That limited appeal to a wider audience.....that's not true with diesel - ordinary cars with conventional designs could have a diesel version of it, if there were demand.
1 more thing: the 3.5% passenger-vehicle market share is (and has been for years) higher than diesel's market share.

Why would I care about historical data if I am looking to buy a car, especially a diesel that could last me 250,000+ miles? It always amazes me that hybrid and SUV sales fluctuated with CURRENT gas prices. I never understood that. Do people not get that they need to factor what prices WILL be over the term they expect to own the car to get an accurate TCO?
And it's not "making guesses about the future". In economics, it's called forecasting....and any good study would have a credible one.

 

It's the same transmission behind the gasoline engine. So this is a VW thing, not a diesel thing.

 

DSG transmission service is easy if you work on cars. The link below will help. I purchased a brass fitting with shut-off for the fill/drain adaptor, added hose and a funnel. Pour in until it starts to drain out over the stand pipe (over fill), Close valve and while still jacked, start it up and shift a few times (parking brake set and foot on brake) until it warms up. Open cock to drain excess, install plug with new crush washer. Leak check...done. I believe my fitting was 17M x 1.5M I.D. (but verify) and one time cost of $23, had hose and funnel (same as Prius Trans). Cost for service is filter/seals, crush washer, fluid after that. I do it at 30K mile but that's how I roll. If I may add, my TDI is the Beetle so filter change is a little tighter. The VAS 6262 and VAG-COM is not needed

 

The price of gasoline and diesel was taken into account according to the full report (http://www.dieselforum.org/files/dmfile/20130311_CD_UMTRITCOFinalReport_dd2017.pdf - page 15).

I have to plead guilty to that, I guess, although my undergraduate degree is in math, so I don't know about the "mathematically challenged" part.

Also, I don't drive a diesel car to impress anyone. I just simply prefer the operating characteristics of a diesel engine over a gas engine, and that includes more than just fuel mileage.

 

Too bad this study considered only traditional gasoline power trains, not hybrids such as the Prius.

 

Keeping to the same or nearly the same model controls for variables. The Jetta hybrid is just arriving, and Toyota, Ford, and Honda don't offer diesel cars in NA.

 

Well said.

Oil changes in my truck cost almost $300.

 

If it didn't clog up before it was due to be changed, my TDI had recommended fuel filter changes every 20,000 miles. I also used additives every fill up. So, that does add a few pennies to every gallon of diesel. Nonetheless, I still like diesel engines.

 

The study took repairs into account. Within a vehicle model the repair costs appear the same between the gas and diesel version by their data.

The study also only goes out to 5 years/75000miles.

 

I had a VW TDI for 6 years. It is more expensive to own a Diesel because of the high cost of fuel & maintanance.
I liked the car & I got avarege 39-43 MPG. When I first got it diesel was the same or lower than reg gas. Then it was taxed so it cost more than premiun gas. So the better MPG was canceled out.
I would have to cut off the car at a drive in window to talk. Took awhile to heat up. Could not let it run to defrost the windows But I liked the MPG & liked driving it.
If you read the VW TDI forums a common theme is "If you can do you own work."
The cost of the DSG Transmisison is about $600 to 800 every 40K to change out the fluids.
I ended up with a Prius & my combined MPG is 48. I have gotten 51 to 61 MPG on trips on the Highway just using the cruise control at 65 & 70 MPH. Plus it is a mid-size car.
This country hates diesel cars. Most people hate them with out knowing anything about them & very few love them.
How many times have you been beside a diesel pickup at a stop light & can't here yourself think?

 

I think that the LAT is just trying to increase their click-through rates.
Nobody with a three digit IQ would ever be able to cite that a TDI is cheaper than any Prius to own.
They probably are cheaper to own than some notional "average" gas sipper...but we're talking about statistics here folks!
"Statistically" a Hummer H2 is a more environmentally friendly car than a Prius. I read a study somewhere that "proved" it. Probably in the LAT...
"Statistically" the United States is in good fiscal shape.....just like Detroit used to be.

I have 2 friends with TDIs.
No thanks!!!
I'd buy a TDI in a microsecond if they were more dependable, if there wasn't the diesel premium to contend with, and if they were cheaper to maintain.
Of yeah....and if they got closer to 60-MPG.

TDIs are built out of real metal and you don't get the feeling that you're riding in a vehicle made by Reynolds Aluminum. Their doors don't go "pink!" when you close them, and they have a REAL interior, and they're orders of magnitude more fun to drive than any Prius ever will be.
But cheaper to own!

Yeah, right!
You saw what happened to Detroit.