Rear ended on the 91 :(

I am a former auto body shop owner. A total loss will not even be contemplated. Damage would have to be estimated above 50 percent of retail book value if there is the potential of hidden damage resulting in supplemental repair costs. IOW, a total loss happens when repair costs, with allowance for hidden damage supplements, exceed 60 percent of retail value.

I cannot see all damage from posted pictures, of course, but I expect repair costs of less than $10,000, and only if driver side quarter panel is sectioned and replaced. Most likely the kinks in the sheet metal will pull out during unibody pull segment of
repairs. You do not want them to section and replace that right rear quarter if it can be straightened instead. The passenger side quarter panel "skin" should straighten during the unibody straightening work.
The unibody will be "pulled" hydraulically, simultaneously, horizontally and vertically. A competent unibody technician will weld pulling tabs to the both quarter panel exterior surfaces and pull on the
clamped tabs and the rear unibody structural rails with coordinated hydraulic pulling. A measuring system utilizing a map of the vehicle underside as well as the exterior body will measure reference points of distance of the underside and of the exterior height of the vehicle's roof. I would not be surprised if currently the roof is disturbed if you run your hand across the surface. The pulling will restore the proper gaps between the two back doors and the door latch brackets. If you are interested, once I have four posts and can posts links, I will try to find and post images to make it easier to understand what I am trying to describe.

The shop I managed specialized in the repair of "heavy" hits. Your posted pictures show me enough to conclude yours is not
near that description, but since you do not do damage inspections and unibody repairs to extensively damage vehicles routinely,
and because you are emotionally involved in this instance you probably will not accept my evaluation.

We used straightening and measuring equipment from this company. They were pioneers in unibody repair systems and have
been in business for more than 25 years.:
Car-o-liner (I am too new at this forum to post links)

Consider that in most states, "no fault" is only about costs related to bodily injury. The bulk of damage to your vehicle was
caused only by a "third party," the driver who hit your vehicle from behind. If there is damage to the vehicle your vehicle was
pushed into, the owner of that vehicle has claims potentially against both you and the party who hit your vehicle from behind.

Lawyers, in my experience, no matter what they might tell you, have no interest in pursuing vehicle damage claims. There is no
money in it, for them. The advice I would give one of my customers involved in an accident similar to yours would be to obtain
a copy of the police accident report and file a collision damage claim with your insurance company while at the same time sending a copy of the accident report to the claims office of the party who hit your vehicle from behind. If the other insurance company responds in a timely way to your submission of the accident report and your request for a damage estimate of all of the damage to your vehicle, you then have the option of choosing whether to have your own insurer pay for the damage repairs less your deductible, or to have the other driver's insurer pay for the repair entirely. This assumes the other party was 100 percent at fault.

If you do not involve yourself as I have described and you simply let your own insurer "handle it," you are left at their terms and directions. In about a year, they may recover part or all of your deductible from the other insurer through a process called subrogation.

If your insurer pays, and you have a lien on your vehicle, your insurer will make the check to you and the lien holder and you will have to get an endorsement on the check from the lien holder before the repairer will release your post repair vehicle. This is not a problem if you have resources to pay for the repair without the insurance check, or if the repair costs are low. If you need the lien holder's endorsement before paying for repairs, contact them to find what they require to sign off on the check and ask the body shop you choose if your lien holder usually accepts the shop's signed statement that repairs have been completed per the insurance damage report, or if an inspection by the lien holder will be required. The catch 22 is that some lien holders will not come to the repair shop to verify completion of repairs, and some shops will not cooperate by driving the repaired vehicle to the local office of the lien holder. No shop will release a repaired vehicle before repairs have been paid for.

I covered all of that because it is related to choosing a accident damage repair facility. Diminished value claims are also related to this decision. I loathed arrangements between repair shops and insurers known as direct repair programs because steering by insurers is usually a component. Shops such as mine was, specialists in repair of heavy hits, when they do an appreciable portion of their business through direct repair referrals from insurers will unavoidably view the insurer as their customer and not the car owner. In this sort of business arrangement, the shop agrees to give the insurer discounts for labor and paint and repair materials, a five percent discount on OEM repair parts, and also agree to insurer guidelines on the use of aftermarket and "LKQ" (used) repair parts. From the outset, the direct repair program repairer cannot be an advocate of the customer because of the influence of the insurer to steer the next repair, and the one after that, to the repair shop.

The pluses to direct repair are that repairers in such programs must guarantee their work and the insurer guarantees that the shop does a complete and satisfactory restoration to preaccident condition if that is possible. I averaged a rerepair a month that was originally repaired at another repairer participating in the two major insurer direct repair programs my shop participated in.
The rerepairs came after a direct repair customer/insured of an insurer was dissatisfied with a repair at another shop and that shop could not remedy a repair complaint of its work or a repairer was no longer in the program or in business.

To sum this up, if you decide to have your insurer pay for all repairs resulting from this accident via a collision coverage claim, less the amount of your deductible, and you ask if they offer a direct repair program that guarantees the repairs as long as you own the vehicle and protects against diminished value and the response is yes, ask for the names of several of the repairers in their program and ask if your insurer pays them directly. If you have a lien, this is to your advantage. You also put the responsibility of the repair outcome entirely on your insurer.

If you choose a repairer not in your insurer's direct repair program, or in a program of any other insurer who pays for your repairs, ask to see their unibody repair system and their wheel alignment system and computer. Ask how many of the techs who will be performing your repairs are I-Car trained and A.S.E. certified - ( Automobile & Light Truck Certification Tests (A Series) Collision Repair & Refinish Certification Tests (B Series) Damage Analysis & Estimating Certification Test (B6) )

My shop paid for tech training and A.S.E. test fees and instruction and displayed the framed certificates of the techs in the shop's customer area.

If you go to repairer where the repairs are guaranteed by the (major) insurer who pays for the repairs to your vehicle you can probably dispense with trying to determine the level of equipment and training at the direct repair program repairer, provided you have a written guarantee from the insurer. Now you know your repairer will not consider you to be the primary customer, but you will have the long term backing of the insurer and an awareness and leverage the repairer will be unaware of until you feel the need to.

I almost forgot..... many vehicle owners labor under the inaccurate assumption that an OEM Car Dealer's auto collision repair facility is the best place to repair accident damage. In the market area my shop was located in, no new car dealer operated a well equipped collision repair department, Almost all late model, local Honda owners chose to have the local Honda dealer "handle" their collision related repairs. The Honda dealer and all others subcontracted their collision repairs to the lowest priced, independent collision repairer in our market. My shop often did the unibody and frame structural repairs
for these subcontractors and they did the less complicated sheet metal, bolt on parts, and paint portions of their dealer repairs in their ill equipped, one and two bay shops. Honda and the other dealers took a third of the repair money in exchange for offering their customers peace of mind.

....And, do not even think about asking the repairer to "cover" your insurance deductible. As it is, the profit margin on quality and competent collision repairs is miniscule. Insurers are not in the habit of writing and paying on damage reports with "fat" in them. Too many repairers profit by not replacing or repairing hidden damage they have been paid to repair but have not, and invoiced anyway. They obtain an invoice for replacement parts from their supplier and return the unused parts after you've paid your invoice. If you must ask, "can you save my deductible?" and the response from the repairer is not, "here is the damage report, what portion of the repairs do you want us to omit to lower your bill?'.... or is not
simply, "no, if we omit portions of the repairs, we must communicate this to your insurer," it might be better to choose a different repairer of your late model vehicle.

 

looking at those photos, doesn't look totaled to me, especially since it's so new still (and thus cost of repair would be nowhere near half the resale value)
but also, $600? that's nothing. the car is going to take way more of a resale hit than that.

 

A competent repair, especially on a light paint colored vehicle with the damage I can evaluate from the posted pictures will be undetectable to anyone except a professional inspecting for past collision repairs. This was my experience, but today there is access to vehicle history data, tracked by VIN. I assume this tool gives those interested the potential of finding the cost of past repair incidents and maybe even descriptions of replaced parts. In the 1990's used car buyers, even from dealers and other wholesalers were not able to detect well repaired damage that was much more extensive than in the posted pictures. The standard was and is to restore the vehicles to preaccident condition, structurally, mechanically, and in appearance as perceived by the vehicle owner and almost all potential buyers. Most people have no idea how much money total loss vehicles are sold for at insurance auctions. If an insurer has qualms about the risks of repairing a collision damaged vehicle possibly outweighing the small up front savings of authorizing insurance payment of an expensive and complicated repair sequence, they will take the easy way out and buy the owner out and auction off the wreck.

Insurers and repairers are unemotional in their practices and decisions. They have the experience of knowing what damage can be restored to the perception and function of preaccident condition and what level of damage is likely uneconomical to attempt to repair. I have the experience of several thousand before and after conversations with former customers. Although they tended to examine their repaired vehicles more thoroughly than they did when they bought them new from a dealer, more than 99 percent of the time their post repair expectations were greatly exceeded. This is routine in this business, not the exception. Only the stories of poorly performed repairs seem to shape general public perceptions. Insurers would not maintain a collision repair industry that more ofter than not failed to restore late model collision damaged vehicles to preaccident condition?

What percentage of the money spent on repairing late model collision damage, beyond what is paid in insurance deductibles, is not
paid to repairers by insurers? The answer is probably less than five percent.

It would be best to become familiar with local laws and caselaw related to diminished value claims.

 

Wow!

California's going to have some good reading in store when they wake up!

Welcome aboard, NEinSE!

 

Interesting post NEinSE. If I was in the op's shoes I would have repairs completed by my insurance company, then file a claim in small claims court against the individual who hit your vehicle to recoup your insurance deductable as well as loss in value AND time compensation as a result of the accident. If I am not mistaken you can file a claim for $5000 every year up to $10,000 total. But I am not an attorney, would need to discuss technicalities with a family member who works in law.

Once you file the lawsuit against the individual, I believe their insurance company will then want to mediate with you to settle outside of court. As it is a rear-end collision, they are 100% responsible for all damages and loss of value.

As per NEinSE's discussion of unibody repairs on a Prius.. let's be 100% honest here. The vehicle will probably not perform the same. Everyone who tells me their vehicle was wrecked and had repairs completed, said they sold the repaired car for a loss because the vehicle was not same after the accident.

It's truly unfortunate if your vehicle is hit by someone else, you lose no matter what.

Now just imagine if your vehicle is a $90k Tesla Model S how upset you would be right now.

 

Mirroring what everyone else is saying that the good news is that no one is hurt. After you get the car taken care of - make sure that there's no asbestos in those flaking tiles on your garage floor . That possibility can be real serious.
.

 

If you do not commence the process initially by pursuing dual claims with your collision damage insurer and a third party claim with the insurer of the at fault driver, you either refuse a payment on the damage claim from your own insurer and pay out of pocket, or you cede your option of pursuing a third party claim. You cannot sue in any court until your insurer grants you permission to do so. You cannot collect from both insurers for identical items if your insurer has paid for your repairs Post repairs, you must establish that the value of your vehicle has been diminished, and attempt to prove by how much money. I assume you would make a claim against your own insurer first, unless your collision policy prohibits this, or state insurance regulations interfere.

I found this on the state of Cal. insurance dept. page :

The rear of a front wheel drive vehicle is more similar to a towed trailer than it is to the front structure/drive components. The risks in this case from shoddy collision repairs are primarily about the rear doors and the rear hatch closing and sealing properly and wind and water leaks. Mechanically the drivability issue is a post repair four wheel alignment within factor specs.

The only issue that cannot be remedied by repair or re-repair is what shows up in a VIN history report. There are many stories of heavily damaged vehicles not"being right" after repairs. Look around, there are many inadequately equipped and trained collsion repairers. The majority of post repair vehicle owners put the incident behind them if they are satisfied, as they do in any other transaction. Consider also the tendency of some to be fixated on comparatively inconsequential issues, there is a thread in this PIP section of this forum of great concern and attention to the post oil change condition of newish Prii....imagine what it might take to satisfy some of these owners after a collision repair of almost any complexity. In some instances, I doubt it would be possible for reasons other than the actual quality of the repairs.
ns
I have spent hundreds of late friday afternoons convincing late model, post collision repaired vehicle owners of every temperament and level of skepticism, prejudgment, and negativity to pay their repair bill, get in their vehicle and drive it away before we closed our doors for the weekend. If an owner cannot identify a flaw in repairs, they are almost always left with no choice but to pay the bill and drive away. I expect most had a more powerful microscope waiting at home to more thoroughly go over their vehicles with than the fine toothed comb they used at my shop before paying for repairs.

It is ironic that very expensive vehicles suffering collision damage extensive enough to total loss average priced vehicles of similar age and mileage, are repaired instead because of their higher book value.

Mercifully for the repair industry, it was my experience that no one ever connected the dots and opted out of the repair process.
In my state at the time, the insured was under no obligation to authorize repairs in exchange for payment for the repairs of the damage less the amount of the deductible. Of course, a lien holder would prohibit the insured from doing anything with the insurance check aside from spending it on repairs OR on paying off the loan!

If I was as suspect about the repair outcome of my vehicle with damage of the extent we are considering in this thread, and my state mandated that insurance payment was not predicated on repairs being actually performed, I would seek the services of a damage appraiser who was not a repairer and hire that person to write a thorough damage report and negotiate a settlement with the insurer paying for the repairs. This is necessary because additional damage and parts price increases are billed and paid for by the insurer only in the course of repairs. If no repairs are planned, it is vital to attempt to identify any detectable or anticipated damage during the settlement negotiations.

Almost no one is aware it is a simple matter to avoid repairing any late model vehicle by negotiating a fair repair settlement and
selling the damaged vehicle to a rebuilder (many rebuilders are collision repair shops) or to salvage yard specializing in buying late model total losses at insurance company auctions. In some instances, a new car dealer will accept your damaged vehicle as a trade in. (If you are able to trade in and buy a new vehicle from a dealer you receive a break on sales tax.) However you sell your damaged vehicle, if you have a loan on it you pay off the loan using the sale proceeds and the repair money you negotiated from and insurer.

I am saying that the wrecked PIP in this instance would be worth at least in the mid teens in tis present condition, to the right buyer if the mileage is average. I know this because I attended weekly insurance totals auctions conducted by firms such as members of:

The innovations in management of sales of total loss (salvage) vehicles by insurance companies has resulted in higher prices.
Since total loss vehicles which are required to be sold with salvage designation titles are bringing high auction sales prices, there is a premium associated with prices of rebuildable late model vehicles sold with "good" titles.

Your wreck is worth more to the right buyer than you would have thought.


If the 2012 advanced PIP we are discussing in this thread has low mileage and a repair settlement is properly negotiated, it should not cost much more than the deductible to sell the wreck and replace it using the sale proceeds and the repair check, with an undamaged 2012 advanced PIP with similar mileage. If a loan must be paid off to accomplish this, a loan of a similar amount. could be obtained to purchase the replacement PIP.

 

You may want to contact your insurance about the mods. I recall showing a receipt and being paid for an upgraded stereo years ago.

 

The hitch made it worse. Those are strong. I manage the appraisal team at the biggest Toyota dealers Toyota Certified Collision Center in southeastern Massachusetts, Check Collision.

With that much damage before dismantling I can almost guarantee there is more damage that's still unseen.

Best of luck with everything. Message me with any questions you got. We don't really deal with diminished value in Massachusetts, but as far as everything else goes, I'll help u as much as I can, Luis

LG-MS870 ? 4 Beta

 

You got it!

 

So now I get to deal with insurance and try to decide what vehicle to get next.

Have you thought about a Toyota Prius Plugin Again?

I have looked at all the plugins. Volt, Fusion, Leaf, etc. Somehow I always come back to the Prius, and feel it is a great car. I have owned Toyota's for years, and they have always been reliable. I can't imagine those other manufacturers can provide the service on a Plugin such as Toyota.

Oh, There is one plugin I would probably get instead of the Toyota Prius. It is a Tesla, but I am short a little bit of money. A lot of money. LOL

 

Wonder if there is a rule on taking the Federal and CA State EV Tax deduction 2 times one year apart?

 

In bielinsk's case, it would be 3 times in a year, if I'm not mistaken (assuming he replaces the PiP with another car eligible for the CA rebate and fed tax credit) - 2012 PiP Advanced and 2012 Rav4EV

FWIW, the CA rebate terms say you're supposed to keep the car for 3 years.. if you don't, you're supposed to give the rebate money back

 

I suspect that you'd like another PiP.

I have bought a Volt for our plug in car. They're not ideal for all circumstances but if your use profile works with it I'd recommend a test drive. There are good incentives on the cars right now and the fed tax credit is $7,500.

 

I think the rule you have to keep the car for 3 years. If the car is totaled, you can get a replacement PiP and don't have to pay back.

 

I would check with your accountant thus no surprises on the tax rebate on a totaled car if you have to pay that back since it is less than 3 years. Technically the car will be sold to the insurance company. There is some thought you may be exempt from payback since it is total loss. But your right wait until Insurance gives you the final word on total or repairable.

 

This thread is so ironic. 3 weeks ago, my 2011 Prius Five (non PiP with 25000 miles) was rear-ended (see pictures).



I was stopped at a freeway entrance metering light, when this old Toyota Camry hits me at what was probably 35 to 40mph in the right rear corner. I think the kid driving the Camry must have been texting, because he didn't even brake before the impact.

Fortunately, I walked away from it. The damage looks localized, but I was concerned about the integrity of the car if it were to be repaired. The 12V battery must have ruptured, though, because the inside of the car was filled was white burning gas right after the incident. Also, my right rear door scrapped against the body when closing.

Fast forward one week... the estimate from the body shop was $15.3k in damage. My insurance company declared the car totalled and cut me a check for about $25.7k plus taxes. The frame was bent (the shop estimated that 8 hours was needed in a frame straightener).

I do miss my Prius, and I think it did a wonderful job of protecting me, considering it's diminutive size. I had planned on keeping the car until the very end... the car just made so much common sense to own and commute it.

RIP, my faithful Prius. By the way, I also had a hitch installed.