NY Times: Cruze "Fossil fuel milage champ"; hybrids still win city, burbs

I would not say that payload is a reflection of engine type. My 2010 Prius placard says 825lbs capacity while a gasoline VW Golf is rated at 1080lbs. Another example -- Accord is 850lbs and a Volvo S60 is 1025lbs and these two vehicle have virtually identical interior and cargo spaces. There are exceptions, but European vehicles in general seem to be rated for more load. This could be a reflection of how manufacturers' trade off load capacity and ride comfort -- Accord's rides garners praise and I personally know that Volvo's can be harsh.

Exterior & Cargo - Consumer Reports

(This is off-topic, I must admit)

 

I'll hazard a guess that Bob was thinking about American consumer acceptance, not regulatory approval. Anything slower off the line and up to 30 mph than a Prius is going to be a hard sale in the US.

 

​

Monticello is the home of the 1st Woodstock festival and current museum and concert theater so he might have been smokin more than just diesel.

 

According to fueleconomy.gov, the 2013 Camry 2.5L has a bin 5 emissions rating (like the Cruze Diesel) in many states in the U.S. like Tennessee, the Carolinas, Mississippi, etc.

 

There is some conflicting info out there. Federal emissions regulations assign vehicles to bins. LEV, ULEV, etc. are designations under CARB. The Camry and Corolla are both ULEV II in CARB states, which in the equivalent of bin4 for federal standards. The federal is a bit more lenient. The difference between bin 4 and 5 is only in emission limits at 120k miles.

Choose a non-CARB state on fueleconomy.gov, and both cars are only bin5. I suspect the cars have all the same emission controls for bin4, but Toyota choose bin5 to reduce emission warranty costs out past the 50k mile mark.

On the other hand, the Chevy Sonic has a bin4/ULEV rating regardless of state.

Some reading.
Untangling U.S. Vehicle Emissions Regulations -- Edmunds.com
Compare Side-by-Side

 

According to car and driver they added sound deadening from the buick verano, making the car quieter except at idle. Cold idle is where the diesel will have its loudest chattering noises, at higher speeds these new modern di diesels don't sound very different than a turbo charged gasoline engine. The verano sound deadening is one of the contributors to the 300lb weight gain and price premium.

GM sold 120,000 of these cruise platform diesel cars outside the US last year. They sold 400,000 of these engines. Its kind of a best of parts approach if you are generous, or frankencar if you are not, taking the european diesel, the verano sound deadening, the eco cruises drag reduction techniques. The only new development they had to do was tweak the diesel engine to handle the hotter and colder temperatures of north america , and added emissions equipment for the epa that they won't need in europe until 2015. Very inexpensive to develop. Why not try it. It gives gm a low risk way to test the small diesel waters in the US. There likely is a niche of people that want high highway mpg and like the cruze. Why not?

The bulk of my pro hybrid talk on this thread really is about long term success in the US. Both diesels and hybrids should see lowering price premiums in the future, diesel tech like direct injection is being added to make gasoline engines more efficient. IMHO the car economics, emissions, and tax policy of the US just doesn't support a large market share of those sub 4000lb diesel vehicles. People will be slow to move from their gasoline ice cars, but when they move hybrids and plug-ins seem more likely. I do like that gm is bringing this choice out, and it should help learn the market. The cruze was the number 2 selling car behind the camry last month, and 8 th best selling last year (cars not including trucks and SUVs). Getting a percentage to be more efficient can only be a good thing.

 

That seemed to say tier two finally fully kicked in in 2007. Post 2007 cars have a lot fewer emissions than pre 1990 cars. Some inbetween like the prius was clean at introduction, but others continued to stink.

My question is what are all these bins for, especially the ones that claim to be about emissions but are really about battery waranties. I completely agree that tail pipes were too polluting in the 80s and 90s, but haven't we won yet. Here is one of the worst commercials ever prouced, highlighting low emissions

This Is The Worst Car Ad In History (UPDATE)

really hyundai?
Now I think the information should be readily available to car buyers. One reason I bought a prius is how low it was, but..... to most car buyers safe is low enough, and every car sold today is pretty safe.

The requirements probably need to be redone, again. But when they are, can't we just stop? Can we have one standard for the country? Perhaps have NOx, SO2, HC, NMOG, CO, particulates, etc available on a website. I can't believe anyone that cares can't get to fueleconomy.gov.

Grr.
And for most people a new clean diesel is going to produce lower levels of pollutants including particulates to the car they were driving.

 

With the CARB adopted states being some of the most populous and large auto markets, I think it would reasonable to adopt their pollutant limits for emissions. It seems most manufacturers have stopped actually making different trims for the different emission regulations. The engine codes under the emission scores on fueleconomy.gov don't change between CARB and federal states.

 

I would not object to going with the higher standard in most things. I would completely throw out waranty related emissions requirements. Its crazy that if you give a prius a 8 year battery warranty in texas, it emits more than the one with a 10 year warranty in California. In most of the big cities we have emissions testing, if someone has a dead battery in a hybrid have them replace it if it pollutes more than a mustang You would also need to throw out there medium and heavy duty diesel requirements, as those were the products of tainted research that turned out to be false, and included fraud.

Otherwise I don't see why carb should continue to get extra federal power just because california was the worst under Nixon. Hasn't he been dead a long time. We have two choices they have done their job well and are no longer needed. They have sucked at their job and polluted ground water and cost the state money. Either way no reason to have the epa and carb doing the same work in 2013. No reason for carb to grab for more federal power recently. Perhaps open an epa office in california in return for closing the very moldy law.

 

Something diesel and hybrid fans can both like
Green Car Congress: Volvo plug-in hybrid bus with Bůsbaar rapid charging to begin field testing in Gothenburg; 75-80% reduction in fuel consumption and CO2

Amazing what saving braking energy and just a tad of extra battery power can do on a slow city cycle. A major benefit is engine off while stopped.

The battery is only 4.8kwh, and was sized mainly for better regen braking. Plugging it in is a bonus. The electric motor is 120 kw, allowing volvo to use their smallest ice on the bus. The current phev bus is euro 5, but a euro 6 version of the engine should be available next year. When euro 6 kicks in, volvo likely will only sell hybrid and plug in hybrid buses in europe. That allows for smaller engines to make up for the more expensive euro 6 (similar to epa) pollution controls.

 

That seems a reasonable conclusion, so I feel justified in saying the Camry is a ULEV II vehicle.

I hadn't thought too much about it before, but the real strength of CARB is the longer requirement of the more stringent categories. I wonder how many GM cars turn into 1970's era polluters once the car hits 50k miles. The state car inspections are not worth jack.

 

yhea .. for me to and i really can not stand it anymore when i am in a NON hybrid car..

its a bad thing that there is more and more dirty diesel option in the US
its a big market and so big pollution.

over here diesel is starting to get more and more less intressing because of taxes and alternative like downzised petrol cars and cheaper hybrids from honda and toyota ( yaris )
also the real small toyota aygo or VW up are selling really well..

buth then again over here whe are used to smaller cars in general.

 

I wonder if they have figured out how to make diesels work effectively with start/stop? IIRC, this tends to clog their particulate filters?
Anyhow, the Volvo is def. good news. Let's hope it comes to the states soon.
On a side note, the combined diesel+hybrid premium would be almost equal to going from a regular car->EV
e.g.
standard gasoline Jetta -> diesel+(non plug-in) hybrid Jetta = 33% increase in cost
standard gasoline Nissan Versa -> LEAF = 33% increase in cost

And yet there is no range anxiety with the diesel hybrid, while getting phenomenal city and highway mpg.
The reason I am mentioning this is it would be interesting to see where diesel+HEV or diesel+PHEV (as well as FCVs) fit into your chart:

​

 

Having a quiet/no idle is a luxury item.

These are not the dirty diesels that power most cars in europe. The new euro 6 regulations, most new diesels in europe don't qualify. The opel astra that this car is similar to, is euro 5, but they have added the pollution control to it that will have soon qualify for euro 6. Additional tweaks were added to work with the hotter and colder temperatures that american cars must work at the current epa regulations.

The toyota camry gets the exact same ratings for pollutants bin and amount as the jetta diesel and cruise diesel here. The camry in california covers some emissions parts for 15 years 150,000 miles instead of 10 years 120,000 miles so it gets a higher ranking for its car in california because of this waranty. That doesn't mean it pollutes less, it simply means if the vehicle fails emissions over 10 years from now toyota will pay for some repairs.

It will take a long time to change attitudes. The diesel premium is going to go up with euro 6 regulations, as the hybrid premium goes down because of lowering battery costs, I believe people will move more to hybrids.
an aygo or an up shouldn't ever get a hybrid, the lighter the car, the less a hybrid will help improve fuel economy, and these are pretty cheap cars that people won't want to pay a hybrid premium.

 

AFAIK the problem with the filters is they don't regenerate well in city driving, they need more continuous power that highway driving provides. These things are fairly new and I am sure they will work out the kinks. I do not know about start stop, but this problem should be less in a full hybrid. In a hybrid when the vehicle needs to regenerate, it simply can simply choose to run the ice at the proper power levels to regenerate the dpf, and store the extra energy in the battery.

When we get to these medium and heavy vehicles there are different economics at play. They burn a lot of gas/diesel. That makes it much easier to absorb a diesel premium, and requires a much bigger battery for EV. These busses could easily though add enough battery for most routes as a phev, but still have the ice for maintenance/cold weather/long trips/emergencies. A PHEV is the best solution, even over hybrids at todays battery costs, as it looks like gains are significant raising batteries to just 4kwh, which should only have a cost of only $3000 more (charging equipment, battery, heavier duty motor).

It was a mckinsey chart mainly for cars, which are light vehicles and tco economics. Eventually with cafe rules rising, tco economics will eventually over come perception, but they found for today the perception is fairly correct. ICE and Hybrid are about equal footing depending on what you want in a car, your driving pattern, values, expectations of gas prices. Higher gas prices can easily push it toward hybrids. Lower battery prices or government tax credits can then push it towards phev or bev.

In the light vehicle (under 4000lb fairly low drag car) american market diesels aren't going to be the lowest tco under any circumstances. But we don't have all the choices of gas, diesel, hybrid

Interms of increaing costs, decreasing oil we have

advanced gasoline, hybrid, phev, BEV

Now in the over 10,000lb market we have quite different dynamics diesel is always gong to have better tco than gasoline. Fed ex seemed to determine on delievery trucks

diesel > hybrid diesel > plug in hybrid diesel > BEV
We are likely at the level of costs of batteries to be at hybrid diesel for these delivery trucks. They said battery costs of $225/kwh. The problem is more R&D is needed to build a better hybrid PHEV truck.

In SUVs and pick ups these are between. There may be room for diesel in the tco space.

Why diesel, some vehicles are more desirable, or have better acceleartion, look etc. Its about choice. If hybrids were done in SUVs as well as in the camry there would be a market for them. As it is it may be easier to add diesels as they are figuring out this hybrid thing for SUVs and trucks. A bmw x5 diesel may be better fuel economy wise to an escalade hybrid.

 

With Toyota unwilling to stand behind it in 36 states.

Um, zero.
The first emission standard for cars was just on NOx. In 1970, the limit was 3.1 grams per mile. Current ULEV and bin5 NOx limits are the same at 0.05g/mi up to 50k miles and 0.07g/mi after that to 120k miles.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/f99017.pdf

Why would only GM cars become polluters after 50k? Their cars are sold along side Toyota's in every state. Some of which have effective inspections. I'm sure California's are. The only reason the 120k mile numbers are more lax is to allow for component wear and age. So unless the Car isn't running right, or a part is broken, there is no reason that it would just become a pollution spewing smog monster. Even with failure of emission control components, a modern car is probably cleaner than one from the '70s.

The absurdity of saying a car made today would end up polluting at 1970 levels can be seen here.


Cash for Guzzlers « EPRINC

 

You mean unwilling to warranty. There is a difference.

Toyota does not warranty any Toyota model bumper_to_bumper past 36k miles AFAIK, but I fully expect my Toyotas to be reliable to 250k miles if not much more given decent care and maintenance.

 

US emission regulations stricter on diesel than Europe's, and will have been so for 11 years when Euro 6 goes into effect. Bin5 is the lowest rating a diesel can have. It is also the lowest a gasoline car can have. It is one step below ULEV. These are also just ratings. A car's actual emission levels can be better with one measured pollutant being high enough to put it into the lower bin. Which is what happened with the first year Volt's CARB rating.

There is nothing saying a diesel can't go beyond bin5. This was posted by wxman at cleanmpg.com on the BMW 328d.

2014 328d (Certified Emissions vs. SULEV Standard)

(Grams/Mile)

Emission.........................Cert....................SULEV Standard

NMHC…….........................0.008.....................0.010 (meets)
CO..................................0.1........................1.0 (meets by a wide margin)
NOx................................0.01......................0.02 (meets)
NOx Hwy.........................0.01......................0.03 (meets)
PM..................................0.001....................0.01 (meets by a wide margin)
NMHC+NOx (US06)….....….0.12......................0.14 (meets)
NMHC+NOx (SC03)..........0.01......................0.20 (meets by a wide margin)
CO (US06)......................0.02......................8.0 (meets by a wide margin)
CO (SC03)......................0.02......................2.7 (meets by a wide margin)
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2014/bmw_pc_a0080350_2d0_u2_diesel.pdf

Diesel sales here are lower than hybrid. The clamoring for diesels may make it seem like it's a large market, but that's mostly because the diesel fans are just tired of only having a choice of a VW, Audi, or Mercedes. The choices are widening with the new BMWs and this Cruze. Mazada might bring diesels to market, but they appear to be trying to meet emissions without SCR(urea).

So diesel market might grow from it's current 1%(?) with more choices, but the price difference between the fuels will keep gasoline dominant. They might do better in the small SUV and truck segments where current hybrid systems have limitations.

They end up needing to regeneration more often in city driving. The vehicle might idle high in order to reach the required temperatures Which hinders fuel economy, of course. Ford has stated, and it surely true of all manufacturers, that reducing DPF regen cycles are a goal for future systems.

 

We are talking about GM here, with a long and sullied history of using its engineering resources to spec parts that die soon after the warranty lapses.

Fed tier II or CARB LEV II are minimum requirements. Unless a company finds alternative value in spec'ing to a higher standard or longer durability, least cost to reach the regulatory standard will prevail.

LEV III will have a phased implementation starting from 2015 and require 150k mile durability. The EPA has proposed a tier III standard to align itself with LEV III, but so far as I know it has not passed yet and the implementation schedule is delayed. I also found it interesting to read in the Federal Register (page 6789) that for tier II only one car is tested for durability per cert, and the "120k miles" is actually 90k miles. I don't know what CARB actually requires.

You are correct though in pointing out that Tier II (at least on paper) has a 120k mile durability requirement. If you know of states in the US that have effective inspections, in the sense that they require LEV II level emissions to pass inspection past 120k miles I'd be very interested.

One correction, by the way: AFAIK tier II bin 5 is a federal FLEET requirement. Any model can be up to bin 8.

This site has an exceptionally clear summary of CA emissions standards. From diesel afficionados, ironically enough.

 

Popular mechanics seems to be one of the non-diesel specific proponents of more diesel choices. Here is one of their articles.
Why 2013 is the Year of the Diesel
It outlines some of the challenges diesels face in america, including perceptions of dirty diesel past and lack of choice.

You will notice only two of those new diesels comes with a hybrid option as well ,the porsche Cayenne, and the bmw 3 series. In those two vehicles the hybrids are the performance option, the diesels get better fuel economy.
Compare Side-by-Side
The bmw 328d has a truly outstanding 37 mpg combined rating, I would like to see a real world test against the camry hybrid (diesel fuel does have more energy though). I would expect many more people to buy the camry, fusion, accord, sonata, avalon, ESh, MKZ, etc hybrids over the beemer oil burner though.


Even pro-diesel popular mechanics shows hybrids are better in most cases on their chart