Battery Changes/Replacements

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus @ Apr 20 2007, 01:36 PM) [snapback]426886[/snapback]</div>

http://priuschat.com/index.php?s=&show...st&p=213331

 

Day 16, hybrid battery repair.... Today, April 20th, my tech said he's charging the small battery, and Toyota won't let him replace my hybrid battery without trying the charger, eventhough the pack charges are ranging from 8 to 14V. He says he's employed the charger on a few Prii, and he expects it to level out the voltages, and if it doesn't, they can get a new hybrid battery overnight. He is scheduled to get the charger May 2nd. He says Monday he will let them know their delivery date is unacceptable and will try to get it sooner. He says he's doing everything he can to go to bat for me. Still no theory on what happened to the big battery. Tune in later....

 

Folks offered both cautionary and encouraging comments on my service concerns, but after nearly a month, I finally turned in the loaner and picked up my 2001 Prius… done just right!

The dealer started out doing an injector repair required by a code stored in the ECM, and they explained that the delay was due to the coincidental occurrence of 3 problems: the fuel pump died while finishing injector replacement; the HV battery died while repeatedly trying to restart the car; then Toyota management in Georgia squabbled over the only HV battery charger in the southeast.

So still, “I Am The Luckiest Dog In The Known Universe†because I got a lot of free stuff, including a thorough inspection, a service history review, valve adjustment check, labor, loaner, and materials. With new injectors and associated materials, engine computer, fuel tank with fuel pump, and small battery, my Prius is completely up-to-date, for free! The tech even says all the HV pack cells vary by 0 volts.

The upshot is, if Toyota takes away your Prius for repairs for a long time, it REALLY pays to be patient.

And, I think we all learned that Toyota needs to have more than one HV battery charger in the southeast.

So if your Prius needs work in the Charlotte NC area, the best place to take it is Scott Clark’s Toyota on Independence Boulevard. They certainly went out of there way to satisfy me, considering how extremely impatient I was.

 

they only have one charger per region. yeah the waiting sucks, i'm surprised they made you wait that long.

glad things all worked out on the up-and-up at the end, sounds like they took good care of you!

 

Evidently could not have been better timing for me to drive into their shop.

 

Hi everybody, this is Carma the green 2001 Prius in Albemarle NC. I'm the one that had my HV battery replaced in this thread. Long time no see, but y’all have been very helpful in the past, and I need some help today, so here’s my latest. I’m at 171K miles, and my CEL has been on for a couple of months, most frequently with P0300 and P0301 codes. My service has not been up to “schedule.” I may need a new engine air filter, and I haven’t had my fuel injectors or valve adjustment done since 60K. My owner has tried Techron treatments, throttle body cleaning and adjustment, new igniters, a new gas cap (which didn’t make my fuel tank pressurize), and new PCV valve, but my CEL still comes on. FYI, I’ve had all recalls done, and I have my second HV battery, as well as other recently replaced parts, such as new center console panel, new Optima battery, and more! Tomorrow I have an appointment for valve adjustment and new fuel injectors. My questions are: 1) Should I keep the appointment, or is their something simpler to still try? 2) Will I be risking damage to my catalytic converter or something if I just keep going as is? And 3) It hurts me to ask, but since I’m at 171K, should I be traded in for a newer Prius? My owner says he still loves me, and besides, my loan is paid off. Many thanks! - Carma

 

1. Have the iridium spark plugs been replaced in the last 60K miles? If no, that should be done now. The spark igniters should be removed and inspected for any flaws such as corrosion in the terminals, cracking in the plastic body, burns from high voltage leaking to ground, or rust marks. Look for water leaking into the spark plug tubes.
2. Yes, an engine misfire results in unburnt gasoline being delivered to the catalytic converter, which will cause the cc to operate at a higher temperature than normal.
3. If a simple problem is found in #1 above, that will not cost much to repair and there will not be a great need to consider purchase of a newer Prius.

 

My iridium plugs were replaced at 164K. We're checking my igniters as you recommend now.

 

Thanks, Patrick! My igniters have no corrosion in their terminals, they do have cracks in their plastic but only around the bolt sleeves, and they don't have burn nor rust marks, and there's no water in the spark plug tubes. However, we just found that the contact springs in the igniters that should touch the tip of the spark plugs were compressed and probably not touching, so we adjusted them to touch. My old plugs were whitish, as if they were starving for fuel. And why isn't any pressure being release when my fuel cap is removed? And we should say that my injectors feel slightly loose and have some oily sludge around the visible O-rings, so does that mean they're leaking? We're trying to avoid long trips and high speeds until the misfires are fixed, so that would help reduce any CC damage, right? Thanks so much for your help. No improvement so far. - Carma

 

Since the fuel injector O-rings appear to be leaking, that may allow unmetered air to enter the intake manifold and lean the air/fuel mixture, which would cause the spark plugs to operate at a higher temperature and the porcelain to be whiter than normal.

That is normal, I have not noticed any whoosh when removing the fuel cap on any of my three Prius including the 2001 which I sold a few years ago.

Yes, it sounds like the fuel injector O-rings are leaking. It would be a good idea to have your mechanic check that out tomorrow as you have scheduled.

The valve adjustment will be quite costly if any valves actually need adjusting, since the two camshafts have to be removed to insert new "buckets" which provide the correct spacing.

Yes, the impact on the CC should be reduced by your avoidance of high speeds and long trips. Good luck.

 

Thanks again!

 

UPDATE: Yesterday we decided to get me a new 12VB, and within a half mile of the auto parts store, I lost most of my power, though fully pressing my throttle pedal did make my ICE run some, and I gave a Master Warning Triangle, with code P3191. My 2-year-old yellow top Optima was tested as having over 13V charge, and was judged defective. (We've been charging a smartphone with a Verizon charger in my lighter socket, but we stopped that yesterday when it wouldn't make a good connection.) I got a new one, and a new MAF sensor, we cleared my codes, and I started up noticeably improved, with no Master Warning Triangle, but still misfiring and throwing a P0301. Today, start-ups are smoother, still with slight misfires, and my oldest electric door lock now works. So far, I have a new PCV valve, 3 new igniters, a new MAF sensor, and a new 12VB. Today, since we plan to DIY replace my #1 fuel injector (and air filter), we want to know: 1) Should I first get some "top tier" fuel and add some Techron one more time? 2) Should I have my fuel pressure tested, and possible replace my fuel tank assembly? 3) Can my fuel rail be pulled without opening my valve cover, by cutting off the "retainer hook" on the corner of my valve cover? 4) With my 2001 fuel system, does my fuel pump need to be disconnected by opening my access plate under my rear seat, to depressurize my fuel line? Thanks!!! - Carma

 

1. Would not hurt, might help.
2. Yes, look for 43 psi at idle speed.
3. Not necessary to cut the hook, I believe the fuel rail has sufficient play to remove the injectors without needing to remove the valve cover first.
4. No. To depressurize the fuel line, make the Prius READY, get the gasoline engine to run (by invoking inspection mode, or turning on the AC and pressing the MAX AC button) then remove the cover of the relay/fuse box next to the inverter, find the circuit opening relay, and pull the relay. That relay provides power to the fuel pump. The engine will stall as fuel pressure drops down.

While you are at it, apply 12VDC to the coil terminals of the circuit opening relay and measure resistance of the switched terminals. Replace the relay if resistance is greater than 0.5 ohm (after subtracting the test lead resistance when the two test leads are shorted together.)

I recognize that the throttle body has been previously cleaned but I would encourage your owner to once more look at the throttle plate and rotate it by hand when the car is IG-OFF and the air cleaner housing is removed. Look at the edges of the throttle plate and the throttle body interior for any black deposits and remove them. Make sure the throttle shaft will freely rotate. DTC P3191 (engine no start code) often is caused by dirt in the throttle body or a binding throttle shaft.

 

Thanks!!!

 

Patrick, my throttle plate looks clean and doesn't stick. In servicing my throttle body, the motor turning my throttle plate was taken apart, so how critical is it that it was put back in the exact same position it was? Should we try several cycles of loosening the screws and turning it slightly and tightening the screws to see if that makes a difference? And wouldn't I throw a specific code for low fuel pressure if it were low? Thanks.

 

This is very critical. The Toyota repair manual assumes that the throttle body and motor are replaced as one unit and there are no instructions regarding how to assemble the motor to the throttle body.

The engine ECU has several DTC associated with the throttle motor. For example, DTC P2119 is associated with actual throttle angle being substantially different (as reported by the throttle position sensor) compared to target throttle angle commanded by the ECU. That DTC potentially might appear if the motor vs. throttle shaft position was altered... I no longer have the Classic repair manual so I do not know whether P2119 is valid for Classic. It certainly is available to 2G models.

Regardless, I do not think this issue would cause engine misfire limited to one cylinder, such as P0301.

There is no DTC for low fuel pressure as there is no fuel pressure sensor. The DTC that would appear results from the effects of low fuel pressure, such as lean air/fuel mixture or engine misfire.

The point of checking the fuel line pressure is to make sure that is not contributing to the engine misfire that you are experiencing. This is a basic check, much like ensuring the 12V battery is in top condition if you are facing an electrical system issue.

 

UPDATE: I finally got a new air filter and a tank of Shell gas with Techron added. After code clearing, my CEL flashed and actually turned off, which it hasn't done in months! So with this weekend's investments, and palpable improvements, we are hoping my CEL problem will resolve, but we have an appointment to check fuel pressure next Monday, if it doesn't. Assuming it's good, the plan is a DIY #1 fuel injector replacement. Thanks! - Carma

 

UPDATE October 21, 2013, 176K miles:

After much puzzling, soul searching, confessions, and fiddling, I’m still misfiring.

Symptoms summary:
I began misfires June 2013, 173K miles, showing codes P300, P301, P30x (progressively more misfires at other cylinders after more driving). I’ve also shown my Master Warning Triangle twice, with P3191 code and barely drivable, but good power after erasing codes.
I passed inspection in June 2013, possibly due to luck, my driver clearing codes, or inspector fibbing.

ID 10 T error summary:
Long before misfires began, my interior was soaked when my windows were left opened overnight during a hard rain. After misfires began, my oil was filled to slightly over the full mark, and in the process of adjusting my oil level, I was also driven with my oil cap off, and oil sprayed mostly over the left side of my engine, including #1 cylinder, but this was after misfires began. Oil was cleaned up, but injectors still look oily, especially #1. Throttle motor assembly disassembled, cleaned and lubed, and reassembled.

Steps tried so far, not in order listed, all without reduction of misfires:

Cleaned and lubed throttle body.

Cleaned and lubed throttle motor assembly.

Replaced iridium spark plugs.

Switched from Walmart to Shell gas and gas treated several times with Techron.

At time of first Master Warning Triangle and extreme loss of power, replaced yellow top Optima battery with new, because (if memory serves) old one was showing anomalies of under-voltage and very high cranking power, and replaced MAF sensor, and air filter.

Replaced PCV valve and cleaned its hose.

Replaced 3 igniters, and shifted their positions.

Swapped circuit opening relay with horn relay.


Next step June 21, 2013, 176K miles: measure fuel pressure. My questions now are:

1.Would the operator errors have caused my misfires, as in oil causing injector damage, or rain soaking my interior?

2.Why would my #1 cylinder be the first to misfire, then others after more driving?

3. Does my fuel system have a method of maintaining pressure when my engine is off?

4. Should my fuel pressure be measured with engine off?

Thanks again so much,
Carma

 

Additional question:
5. Do I have a fuel filter that should be replaced?

 

1. No

2. Good question. Apparently whatever the root cause is, is getting worse over time and impacting more cylinders.

3. Yes, the fuel system is supposed to maintain pressure for some period of time to reduce the likelihood of vapor lock, thus improving engine starts under hot ambient temps.

4. No

5. The fuel filter and fuel pump are contained within the fuel tank. If you find that fuel system pressure is below spec and also find that the circuit opening relay is OK, then the problem is either with the fuel pump or fuel filter which means the fuel tank would require replacement.