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VSC / Steering problem?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by plymouth-prius, Feb 4, 2006.

  1. plymouth-prius

    plymouth-prius Junior Member

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    :( Has anyone experienced something similar to this?

    This morning I was navigating a curved exit ramp on a slight incline. The road was dry and I had total control over the vehicle. Without warning, just a few meters into the turn, my 2004 Prius' vehicle stability control or VSC came on for no apparent reason. Suddenly I found that I no longer had control over the vehicle and rather than continuing on the turn, I was heading straight for a guard rail. The car did not respond to the steering wheel so I hit the brake in order to avoid the guard rail. Braking caused the car to turn enough that I was able to go safely off the road but I could not actually stop the car. The car stopped when it finally hit a small baby tree. The VSC indicator remained on until I 'rebooted' the car. At this point the car seemed to operate fine.

    The car is a 2004 Prius with just over 20,000 miles; routine maintenance has been done. We did experience the computer problem, and the recall work was done.

    After researching this problem on the internet I found other Totyota VSC issues, including a similar user report about a Toyota 4Runner:
    I took the 4Runner to the Toyota dealer, and they said that the computer code indicated that the yaw sensor had sensed a problem, so that activated the VSC system.... While accelerating up a dry, clean on-ramp to a highway, it recently pulled me off the road onto the shoulder because the front right brake applied and the engine throttled down. This almost caused a crash.

    That person associated it with charging his phone in the car:
    When I have my cell phone charging through the on-board power adapter (cigarette lighter-like socket) in the center console, and I bring the RPMs above 2500 or so, the VSC system malfunctions. Sometimes it just shuts off (the VSC and Track Off lights come on), and other times the VSC actually engages. When it engages, it applies the ABS to some of the wheels, and it reduces engine power. If the warning lights come on, turning off the ignition and restarting the engine clears the lights. When the VSC is actually engaging, yanking the charger out of the adapter immediately disengages the VSC behavior. This only happens when my phone is plugged in and charging. I've had a CD player plugged into the adapter and an XM satellite radio plugged in, but the problem didn't occur either of those times. Also, I've had the phone's charger cord plugged into the power adapter, but without the phone attached to the charger, and the problem also did not occur.
     
  2. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Definately seems worthwhile to have the yaw sensors and VSC system checked out. This is the first report of an issue like this in a Prius that I've seen/heard of.
     
  3. seasalsa

    seasalsa Active Member

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    Never heard of the problem before.

    You give a lot of information on the 4Runner but do not relate them to your problem. Do you have a lot of aftermarket stuff plugged in too?
     
  4. plymouth-prius

    plymouth-prius Junior Member

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    I continued to google "Toyota VSC Malfunctions" and found that there are problems with VSC reported across the product line. The general problem is that the VSC activates inappropriately, locking the brakes, decelerating the car, and basically steering the car into trouble. Here is a link I found this morning about a Sienna. In this case, one of the replies reported that tire pressure can cause this. IN MY CASE, my car was just in for the 20,000 mile maintenance, but this dealer has not checked tire pressure when rotating tires. In other words, I think the front tires were underinflated and the rear tires were two pounds higher than the front tires. The car is now at another dealer, so I cannot check.

    Here is the link I found, but note that another driver responded that it happened to them too:

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX?14@@.ef00024/2475
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/[email protected]@.ef00024/2485

    Re: charging devices- it is likely my son was charging his phone when the incident occured, but I am thinking that is a red-herring. We do routinely use phone chargers, a Garmin GPS, and at times, an inverter for lap tops.
     
  5. SomervillePrius

    SomervillePrius New Member

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    plymouth-prius:

    I would def. have the system checked out, it sounds like it's malfunctioning. This is the drawback of having all this electronics trying to be smart in the car.

    If you are from plymouth MA then it might be possible that the roadway had some invisible black ice on it and the wheels lost traction for a second and then the system wasn't smart enough to let go og hte control. This happened to me on a parking lot. To me it looked perfectly dry but when I tried to turn the VCS and ABD kicked in (it was an interesting experience). Once I got out I found that some parts of the parking lot had VERY slippery parts of it that for some reason where still frozen even though it was in the low 40's out.

    It would be nice if you posted where you are from in the profile. Here in MA it's been raining/snowing latley and the roads have been "interesting" tro drive on.
     
  6. plymouth-prius

    plymouth-prius Junior Member

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    I am from Southeastern PA (Plymouth Meeting) and the weather was in the 50's and the road was dry. A state trooper arrived at the scene and volunteered to file a report to verify the road conditions. It is on file - no water, ice or skid marks.

    It is being checked out, but can I trust the dealer? The comments on the web don't indicate concern from Toyota. It really does seem to span the product line.
     
  7. tumbleweed

    tumbleweed Senior Member

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    If you have not already done so I suggest filing a complaint with NHTSA (nhtsa.dot.gov). This is a safety item and if they receive 20 or 30 complaints they may investigate. I poked around on their web site a little to see it there were any other complaints about the Prius VSC but the web site isn't user friendly and I couldn't find anything one way or the other.
     
  8. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    have the sensors checked out. DH had come up with a list of VSC related sensors that could cause problems way back when for another post, i can't find it. maybe it was a PM. i don't know. there's a ton of components that have a say in the decision-making process of whether to activate vsc or not.

    do you have reason not to trust the dealer, or are you saying that because you don't think toyota cares? this is going to be on the individual tech and service department, if they don't make you happy go elsewhere.
     
  9. plymouth-prius

    plymouth-prius Junior Member

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    Thanks to all. My goal had been to determine if others had experienced this also. I think I can report anecdotes from other Toyota owners, but not other prius owners at this time.

    I will do NHTSA, depending on Toyota contact outcome. I am concerned that this is problem generically with VSC.

    The dealer did not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling that they would get to the bottom - I suspect they will tell me only that the VSC was activated without accepting that it activated in error, on a 50 degree day, on a dry, clear road.

    My local dealer (not the same one that has the car now) did the 20,000 mile maintenance just one week before - they can't claim the car was in ill repair, and it is still under warranty. And the Trooper's report validates the road conditions.

    We shall see where it goes.
     
  10. V8Cobrakid

    V8Cobrakid Green Handyman

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    sounds like a rather serious problem there. My car has never malfuctioned like that. I've always had control in any condition.. except pure ice at a 20%grade incline. good to hear you are ok.

    i would say to switch the stock tires though. ( just something i'm picky about.. they do suck after all)
     
  11. jdjeep98

    jdjeep98 New Member

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    I wonder if it's repeatable... I also wonder what type of phone was involved.
    It might be interesting to take a car out onto a large open parking lot and try to make it malfunction...
    Anybody want to volunteer? ;)
     
  12. narf

    narf Active Member

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    The only thing that puzzles me here is the part about no steering control. The steering is electically assisted, but it's still mechanically connected to the wheels. The only way that their could be no steering control (other than the linkage breaking, which would be an obvious failure) that I can think of is a loss of traction to the front wheels, which would of course trigger the VSC. Even without rain or ice you can still break traction by overdriving the turn or hitting gravel, leaves, etc. I'm not saying that it was or wasn't driver induced, just that it's hard to imagine a failure mode that wuold cause a loss of steering control.
     
  13. hdrygas

    hdrygas New Member

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    The VSC does enhance or degrade the steering in put from driver. It is not just the brakes. Remember in Japan the car can park itself. Prius New Car Features clearly describes how the VSC modifies the driver steering input to help control under steer or over steer conditions along with the traction control and ABS system. I would guess that even the ABS and Traction Control would feel that the car is "steering" itself. I have experienced this in a car with just ABS and Traction Control. It will be interesting to see how this all falls out.
     
  14. TimBikes

    TimBikes New Member

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    Isn't the "black box" supposed to record the last x number of seconds of these types of incidents? I wonder what all the sensors / inputs into the box indicate?
     
  15. plymouth-prius

    plymouth-prius Junior Member

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    Okay - here is the update:
    First, my son tells me it was the skid light that came on.

    The dealer I took it too found no codes. At my insistence, they checked the tire pressure - it was at 30 pounds all around (Actually, my digital guage said 29 front).

    Yes, I really paid $60 the week before for the 20,000 maintenance, in which the dealer documentation says the not only rotate tires, they check the pressure.
     
  16. SomervillePrius

    SomervillePrius New Member

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    I'm glad to hear it was not the vsc but the traction control. Still with lower pressure in the tire shouldn't that improve the traction rather then make it worse? Maybe 30 is below recomended setting and causes loss of traction.

    Also, the prius has a lot of torque so it's possible that it could 'peel' if the asphalt was slick and you pushed the gas pedal. I hope that the asphalt had a layer of grime on it and that you where actually spinning the wheels (not knowing it) until you hit the brakes.
     
  17. KTPhil

    KTPhil Active Member

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    Same dash light is used for TC and VSC. TC doesn't affect steering. TC isn't a factor if you weren't on the gas. So it was likely VSC, not TC.

    Did you remember hearing a chime or beep? That means VSC. Most times it is used, the driver is pretty damn busy and won't notice the sound even if it is going off.

    A differential of 1-2# tire pressure will not cause this problem.

    Yaw sensors, wheel rotation sensors, and all related connectors should be checked, even replaced as a precaution. Document everything in case it happens again and their liability is therefore established. You (and they) are very lucky it was only a baby tree that was "injured."
     
  18. 200Volts

    200Volts Member

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    What do you mean by "the car did not respond to the steering wheel"?
    Did you turn the wheel with no effect or was the "car" turning or locking the the steering wheel?
    I would suspect that one front brake was applied by the TC_VSC and thus you felt unable to get directional control.

    Was their any pot holes or ruff surfaces where this happened. You could have coupling between gyros which would fool the system. Coupling occurs when gyros are not EXACTLY aligned at 90 degrees to each other. Turning and going up-down a hill may trigger coupling.
     
  19. plymouth-prius

    plymouth-prius Junior Member

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    Multiple questions here.

    The road is relatively new - completely rebuilt - no pot holes.

    He did not hear the audible VSC alarm.

    This is a ramp to the right, banked and uphill. The car went straight instead of turning right, and my son kept turning the wheel right.

    He applied the brakes and the car spun around. Instead of going right, he wound up off the road on a patch of grass. A small tree actually stopped the car (denting the bumper). If he had not hit the brakes, he would have gone into the barrier. The brakes didn't slow the car - just changed the direction.

    BTW - the tires should have been 35 front and 33 rear. While the dealer said it was 30 all around, I had measured the driver's side it before I went in to the shop - I measured it with a digital guage as 29 front, 28.5 rear.

    For anyone familiar with the Philadelphia area, this happened on the west bound schuylkill expwy ramp for 202 south.
     
  20. 200Volts

    200Volts Member

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    I'm confused.
    If your son was turning the wheel to the right and the car went straight, then you HAD to have skid marks left on the pavement unless there was ice or something.

    Also, about how far did the car travel in the out of control condition?