10k Mile Oil Change Interval too Long for Synthetic?

tou·ché!

 

I agree with Ral and others talking about the Condition of the Oil, not the number of miles on the car. PiP have less hours on their engine per mile. Oil needs to get up and stay up to operating temp to evaporate off contaminants.
A car that takes >11 months to get 10k miles because it just runs for 18 miles a day, round trip, is WAY harder on the oil than a car that does 100+ miles a day and does 10k in < 4 months.
The winter cycle of oil is harder than the summer cycle, especially with The Summer Road Trips (!) included.
I may operate with seasonal variations in oil change intervals. 3k, 5k, 10k are all just arbitrary numbers really.

The oil analysis service I use costs $15 and should be available from any CAT heavy equipment service center.
Attached is an analysis of Mobil 1 0w-20 used for 7k miles during the winter months.
Note: I use a Block Heater for quicker warm ups. Don't know if this equals quicker oil warm ups...
My daily commute is 26 miles each way, ~30 minutes.
The oil didn't seem too dirty on the dipstick, but once it was in the drain pan, it stunk and was darker than expected.
I felt I had taken it too long.
But like most of this thread,,,, That is just my opinion. Att are facts ,, not opinions.
I'm not clear on the results of this analysis. Bob? Anyone else know what to make of this report???
This is from the M1 0w-20 oil spec sheet: Viscosity, @ 100ºC, cSt (ASTM D445) 8.7

Note:
I replaced this oil with Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5w-30, and a Mobil1 oil filter, and this oil claims 15k mile oil changes.
I'm imagining 50% less oil changes,,,, you think? But I will be testing so no opinions will be needed....

 

Conventional wisdom is that what you're describing (except maybe the trailer towing) is easier on the oil than what my car saw this last winter (with the engine only reaching full temperature for the last 5 miles of each 20 mile drive). Sure, the engine's working harder at 75 mph but it's fully warmed up and steady state (none of the starts and stops) and it'll have run fewer hours by the time it reaches 10,000 miles than mine has, averaging 35 mph running 75% of the time.
Based on Toyota's recent history with such I'd expect to see reports of sludge problems if the interval were too long but I don't think I've ever seen that on PriusChat.
I also own a '97 BMW that's averaged ~8,500 miles oil change interval over its 145,000 miles and all is well so far.
Modern oils combined with closed loop engine controls are in no way comparable to what we had 30 years ago (when I was putting Arco Graphite in my VW Rabbit).

 

A lot depends on the car model, age, and engine wear.
My 2003 Honda CR-V (with 170'000 miles on it) is now rated for a 10'000 mi oil change interval if you're using full synthetic. Once I get near 9k miles since the last oil change- I can hear the valve train. That's my cue to change the oil, I wouldn't want to push it any farther at that point.

On my 2012 PIP- I changed the factory oil at 5K mi, I plan on changing it next week when I hit 10K mi- I will use a TRD filter at that point- then wait till I hit 20K mi for my next change. Of course if the engine starts getting noisy (which I doubt it will) I'll change the oil at that point.

 

Stick with the bible: Owners' Manual. You can't go wrong with that approach.

DBCassidy

 

I'm a little skeptical of Toyota's guidelines for any service interval, in light of:

1. Their position that the transaxle fluid should never need changing.

2. In Canada they say to change the engine oil and filter every 8000 kilometer (~5000 miles) or 6 months, whichever comes first.

It might be overkill, but 8000 km or 6 months works for me. If Toyota Canada changed their policy to be in line with the US I'd stay the current Canadian interval, regardless. I'm not saying I think the oil is spent at the shorter interval. But it's not overly short, and I'd rather err on the side of caution.

Like The Electric Me, our last vehicle was a Honda (Civic Hybrid), with the Maintenance Minder. In our case, with a lot of short trips and low annual mileage, the MM would get down to 15% remaining life, and start nagging, at around 8500~9000 km, quite consistently.

The MM seems to be monitoring several factors, besides odometer reading. I'd guess mean coolant temp, number of starts, mean rpm, and so on. And that semi-intelligent system (not just counting off the odometer) deemed just over 8000 km as a good change point.

Isn't there an "extreme service" interval in the US schedule, and it's set at 6 months or 5000 miles. I think most manufacturers deem short trips as extreme service, and most drivers are doing a mix I think.

Maybe this question is more of a struggle for owners on Toyota's free maintenance program? Personally I'm doing my own oil changes, and a couple of hours every spring and fall is no big deal.

 

css, I question that your engine only gets all the way warmed up so late in your commute. I use a Garmin nuvi with the ecoRouteHD and I watch 'coolant temp' as one of the Engine Gauges. The Gen3 has an Exhaust Gas to Coolant heat exchanger. It's purpose it to get the engine coolant up to operating temp as soon as possible. ( 190°F ).
I can't put a time on it, but my car warms up really fast,, even if I don't use the Block Heater.
It's the oil temp that we can't monitor and it's important for the oil to spend time at full operating temp, whatever that might be, and stay there to evaporate moisture and other volatile contaminants.

db, you are of the Faithful. However as stated there is a WIDE range of conditions getting to that 10k official number.
What if we had an analysis of oil from an urban driver, (all short trips), and it took 12 months to get to 10k ?
Versus my bank courier buddy that can knock out 10k miles in less than 7 weeks.
Shouldn't the results of these two oil analysis be taken into account?
Maybe you can go wrong with the official recommendations.

 

This is why upstart companies prefer to hire young professionals right out out of college. This is why all my siblings and I hate dogs because a wild pack roamed my neighborhood at night when we were young. This is why my wife only eats Godiva chocolate and no other brands. This is why people warm up their cars even though all cars now have electronic fuel injection.

It's ingrained into the psyche. Facts won't change your mind. Cars need 3k OCI. They will continue to do so forever. Educate my wife on quality cacao chocolate beans. She'll still prefer Godiva. Show me all the cute dog pictures you like but I will hate every one of them.

I'll put myself in their shoes and imagine a future when tires are so well made that you can drive 200k miles on it until you see the metal chain links inside start to come out. Toyota doesn't recommend changing tires ever. Can you imagine the insanity when we argue with the younguns' in the future about tires blowing and losing control of the car? They'll think we're nuts!

 

The conditions were temperatures in the mid-teens to low 20's and cruising and coasting my way down Woodward Avenue between 40 and 50 mph with a few stops at traffic lights. The temp would get up to, maybe, 180 at times but I would watch it drop while the engine was off. It wasn't till I got on the freeway that it would get up to 194 where it would stay till I got off.
This was with a full lower grille block.
Based on past experience with oil temp gauges I can guarantee that the oil never reached 170.

 

My guess the syn oil Toyota uses can go longer than 10k miles, but with their "oil sludge" problems from the 90's they, like all auto manufacturers are conservative in their maintenance recommendations. Of course oil will get dirty over time - that's what's it supposed to do and using a good quality filter will keep most of it at bay. What syn oil buys you is a longer use period because it doesn't degrade and break down like dino oil, and it's functionally usuable over a much wider range of temperatures. I'll stick with 10k oil changes.

 

Since the 70's, I've used synthetics on numerous vehicles, always exceeding 10K oic's, one going over 20k, on a diy basis. Since the G3 has the cartrige filter and is harder to do, I let my dealer do it at 10k. Never a hint of a problem.

 

I average anywhere between 12K - 15K a year. Early May (just this past Thursday) and early October DIY oil changes work for me. I would have no problem going the full 10K between changes, but, since I don't have a garage, I don't want to be changing oil in the middle of winter...

 

I haven't gone to a Jiffy Lube since I traded in my 16 year old Accord...at over a decade old, I felt I could risk having Jiffy Lube do the oil changes. Even then I caught them screwing up. Asked them to put in synthetic (and paid for it) watched as they put in their standard bulk oil.

The funny thing about that commercial is the contention that Jiffy Lube doesn't want to fix your vehicle. Well maybe they don't do repair work, but Jiffy Lube CERTAINLY makes money trying to up sell you on additional services. When I used to take my Accord in, I always braced for the 2-3 minute onslaught of recommended additional services, all way over priced. The Oil Change might of been priced equitably, but the inflated amount of money they wanted to charge for things as simple as air filter or light bulbs was ridiculous.

Using Jiffy Lube was convenient, but I would never trust them with a newer vehicle that I really cared about.

 

Jeez, I can't believe we're having this discussion again.

I have 50,000 miles of Blackstone UOA's with Mobil 1 0W-20 and Toyota TRD oil filters. I've done 10K oil changes since 10K miles, and did extra 15K and 25K sample tests. 10K mile oil change intervals are fine on this vehicle, and I could go 12K miles if I wanted based on the residual lubricant package condition.

 

Dark,
Where can I look at oil analyses? Should I be posting mine somewhere?

I was just saying One Size does not fit all for this or any car.
It's the condition of the oil that matters.
You have your climate and driving pattern and 10k is good for you.
It might not be best for everyone else.
The Aussie guy, the urban 11 mile a day guy, the Alaska guy, etc. may need different oil wts. and change intervals.
I may go for a 15k oil change if the Mobil 1 Extended Performance does not get too nasty near the end. This oil says on the bottle it can be used for 15k.

And I'll be posting the results,, somewhere...

 

IMO - the oily industry knows what side of the bread that the butter is on ... therefor change synthetic @ 10k miles. i've never heard of anybody whose engine failed because they changed their synthetic at 10,000 miles ... And for crying out loud that's what the synthetic oil manufacturers say to do ... come on ... really now ...

 

Point of bringing up Jiffy Lube is they made a living from convincing the public everyone needed a 3k miles oil change. They did this by stating we all drove our cars in "extreme conditions". That doesn't ring a bell?

 

As with most PC members, I would not trust Jiffy Lube (you probably can train a monkey do that). I'd rather get under the car myself. I recently had the engine oil changed at about 8k. The color was not to dark as I had expected, so I'm sure I could of made it 10k with no problems.

Anyone has any preference from OEM oil filter compared to other brands (like K&N)? I use MOBILE 1 from Walmart in the 5 quart jug.

 

Another tell tail sign of motor oil breaking down is sludge.. This does remind me of my old Rx300 model which did have issues with oil sludge. Mine had no issue but I did use synthetic oil and changed is around 8k mark.

Anyhow, in the end Toyota covered the issue as the main cause was inherent in the design of the oil passages. Moreover, as long as the owner followed the service guidelines, they are covered by factory warranty.

So with that, if there is any concern of the oil breaking down inside the recommended interval, why wouldn't Toyota reduce the service interval to protect themselves?

Vehicle Engine Sludge | Consumer Reports

Then in all my BMW's which have been requiring synthetic oil since the 90's, with the active service monitor, the oil changes are around 10-13k miles. I have not read any issues on failure due oil breakdown. Plenty of other failures but not due to oil failure. So this is since the 90's now and since then, synthetic oils clearly have been further developed. It's finally trickled down the cars like the Prius which is great to see. Just like driving a Prius, it's not just about your wallet, it's for all of us.

California Urges Drivers to Change the Oil Less Often - NYTimes.com