Please Help. Confused on Gen 1 Batteries: New, Rebuilt, etc?

In the past, a Toyota replacement battery came with Gen 1 modules. These were swapped with the existing modules.

It is possible but I have not heard of anyone doing this.

I upgraded my 2003 Prius traction battery at 120,000 miles to a rebuilt from ReInVolt. There was nothing wrong with the old modules but three years later, one of them has already given up the ghost. They do not last forever

I don't know them.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

 

Rebuilding a traction battery has two requirements:

• near equal Ahr capacity modules - a 2.5 Ahr module and a 5.5 Ahr module will have different charge-discharge slopes. The 2.5 Ahr module will have a greater swing and more quickly approach 'do not go here' voltage levels. So it is important to survey incoming modules to measure their capacity. This takes time and automation to do it right. That is why we recommend getting a smart, RC hobby charger/discharge unit with a data storage capability and both dV and temperature sensing charge limiter.
• equal State of Charge - much easier to achieve, just charge the modules to the same voltage level at ~55-60% capacity. The SOC will vary in normal operation.

Now our NHW11 traction battery requires 38 modules. But any modern Prius packs are only going to have 28 modules. Not only will they have some difference in Ahr capacity within a pack, two, 28 module packs are going to have substantially different operational histories. So the best approach is volume, having a large number of modules coming in; survey them when they come in for Ahr capacity, and; building packs using matched modules. For example,

• 38 modules, 5.5 Ahr +/- 0.5 Ahr - might be one pack
• 38 modules, 4.5 Ahr +/- 0.5 Ahr - might be a second pack
• 38 modules, 3.5 Ahr +/- 0.5 Ahr - would be fine, third pack

It takes at least 38*3 = 114 modules to assemble three serviceable replacement packs. But that does not include the failed modules discovered in the input stream.

Any modules will less than 3.0 Ahr would go to the recyclers as the first 'failed' pack I bought had modules below 2.5 Ahr with many in the 2.2 Ahr range. These are badly dehydrated modules and though my rehydration experiments showed they can be reconditioned back to 6.5 Ahr, I was never able to solve the case seal problem. Worse, the terminal "O" rings were often permanently damaged which means even with the case resealed, they would just dehydrate too soon. But look at the economics.

Traction battery rebuilders are faced with 'garage operators' who may lack the inventory and automation to do the job right. Worse, there are folks who have no clue about traction battery dynamics out there buying salvage packs and building . . . stuff. Search the messages and you'll find more than a few cases of folks who report:

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'I replaced "n" modules and it worked great for 3-6 months and failed again.' - with obvious frustration​

I don't know if you've ever met someone who thinks they can rebuild an engine without a torque wrench. I have but they don't brag about it later. Rebuilding a traction battery takes more than just blindly swapping modules unless one wants to spend the rest of their lives replacing modules.

I don't know where you get "3 years" as the life of a properly rebuilt traction battery. Traction battery life is a function of "heat is the enemy." The folks who are sloppy about their rebuilding technique are also the ones most likely to drive over 70 mph, in hilly terrain, hot weather, and park in the direct sun.

The $2200 for new NHW11 modules sounds about right. Properly charged, they should have a very, very long storage life. It is cycling at high temperatures that wears them out. So I would have no problem with a Toyota replacement pack . . . but choose to go with refurbished, NHW20 modules. It has to do with heat management as "heat is the enemy."

Our NHW11 is my city commuting car but sometimes I may have to use it to do a cross country trip in summer heat. I also live in North Alabama and this is not the coolest place to live. So I chose a 'heavy duty' module design even though used and bought it assembled and tested from ReInVolt because I knew they had the inventory, technology, and skills to do a good job. But that is me . . . I've been called an 'anal retentive engineer' and I consider it a compliment.

Bob Wilson

 

Hi Jeff,

The Toyota battery is new and has all new cells looking exactly identical to the original ones. Since the originals typically last 10 years or more I think that's great. I think current list is 2299.00 at Toyota. It comes case, cells, and I believe bussbars if I remember right from installing my new one. All the cables, bussbar covers, and all the electronics and temp sensors you need to carefully swap off your old unit before returning it to get your core deposit back.
On a positive note, rebuilt would be easier if they come totally ready to go.

If you haven't bought one yet please consider the new one. Rebuilts still have some use and cycles on them at the very least, and buying one is like buying a case of used laptop batteries for almost new price. New is better to me but of course as Bob says there are rebuilders and then there are guys who think they are.

Just my 2 cents worth. It's not hard but just be careful of the ~300 volts ... and your back , I was impatient and though I should have gotten help lifting and moving it around neglected to- and paid for a month lol. It would be a good idea to get a small inch-pound torque wrench to tighten all those nuts. You wouldn't want to break a stud off the cell in a new battery.

Good luck,

Rick

 

Jeff,

Getting a well made rebuilt (My preferred source is ReInVolt) HV Battery using low mileage Gen3 Modules (6 cells each) is a great choice. I would trust it to last longer than a "new" Gen1 battery from Toyota as the Gen3 modules are superior to even the Gen2 modules which were a significant improvement over the Gen1 modules.

JeffD

 

We need the INFO codes associated with P3125 to fault-isolate the problem. Also, we need to see that it came back.

For good measure, do you see turbulence in the inverter coolant reservoir?

Bob Wilson

 

Yes, that should be your next step. It sounds like the newly-installed battery and the inverter coolant pump are both operational.

 

• 38 modules, 5.5 Ahr +/- 0.5 Ahr - might be one pack
• 38 modules, 4.5 Ahr +/- 0.5 Ahr - might be a second pack
• 38 modules, 3.5 Ahr +/- 0.5 Ahr - would be fine, third pack

Bob Thank you for your input into this forum I have a question about your statement above if the battery is sets of cells all in series in modules of 6 and all in series shouldnt they all be somewhere neer the same capacity im not sure what you meen 38 modules in a pac. can you explain please.

Read more: http://priuschat.com/threads/please-help-confused-on-gen-1-batteries-new-rebuilt-etc.125091/#ixzz2RtZdwh1m​

 

My suggestion is that you visit another dealership, describe the warning lights and driveability symptoms that appear, and ask for the DTC to be read. Don't confuse the service writer or the mechanic by saying that your traction battery contains G3 modules. Just find out the DTC including three-digit info codes, and ask what diagnosis the mechanic would provide. Yes, you may have to pay $200-$300 for that opinion.

I do not have experience putting G3 modules into a Classic vehicle but it should not make any difference vs. the use of G2 or Classic modules. All Prius traction battery modules contain six cells and have a nominal 7.2V voltage.

I agree that in retrospect it was not a good idea to invest $9K into an 11 year old Prius. It is reasonable for you to ask whether you are putting more good money into a rathole.

 

Let's go over each set:

Either ask them to read out the codes or get one of the Prius-aware scanners and read the code directly:

• ScangaugeII ($150) - add XGAUGE definitions
• AutoEnginuity ($500+your Windows laptop) - full up diagnostic
• miniVCI (~$35) - Chinese hack
• Local Toyota service department scans and reports codes

So they distracted you from reading and reporting the INFO codes?

External symptoms do not work. We need specific Prius-aware diagnostic information. Over-the-counter scanners do not know how to read the important codes.

The next one requires understanding what Amp Hour (Ahr) means and balance effects.

If you build a pack with different Ahr capacity, the weakest ones will limit the pack capacity:

The "A" arrows are where the voltage difference between the best and worst modules reaches 0.3V, the limit that triggers a P3006 code. The only way to identify the pair of modules that are running low is to use a Prius-aware scanner.

But even if matched modules are used, it they are not balanced, the offset also limits the pack capacity:

This would be perfectly usable pack IF all modules were at the same, initial, state of charge.

A pack needs to have equal capacity modules, Ahr, and equally charged modules.

Bob Wilson

 

The two I tested both worked perfectly with our NHW11. The first one, firmware 1.4.7, did not fully work with my wife's car, ZVW30. The second one, firmware 2.0.4, has worked perfectly with both cars.

Bob Wilson

 

Thanks for that Bob. At what load would you test at. And what current would be drawn from the battery under normal load it must be a few amps even at 270volts.
Will you get a check engine light if the bank is out 0.3 volts and you get a P3006 code.