Electric cars vs. plug-in hybrids: Which gets better economy?

That's how FUDs are started. I test drove a Lexus GS450h, did not experience or notice any of these points!
Autobytel Review: 2013 Lexus GS 450h Test Drive & Luxury Hybrid Car Video Review - YouTube

Lexus GS 450h Hybrid extreme test drive - YouTube

 

Not sure about FUD, but it certainly is over generalization.
Using the exact same logic you could say the exact same thing about ICE cars, since there are some that are underpowered, sluggish etc.

James needs to seperate design decisions from the type of engine/motor. You can very easily have an EV or PHEV that gets excellent performance while you can just as easily get an ICE that has awful performance.

 

Most of Japanese car drivers have never driver a German car and hence do not know what steering feel is, feedback from the front wheels.

 

Complaints of 'numb' steering are in the same basket as complaints about how cars look. These people are just complaining about change. Waaaah.

If hydraulic steering was the new tech they would whine how electric is better.
Now that so many cars look like Prius, the whiners have mostly gotten used to it and now complain about whatever else is new to them.

 

sounds like fun when every road imperfection is transmitted thru the steering for that steering feel, I want to feel that and while at it, throw in more road feel for a nice harsh spinal ride and calls it Sport.

 

There is a Prius steering hack to reduce the feed-back signal to the electronic steering assist . . . for those who need more exertions while driving.

Bob Wilson

 

I didn't say the steering feel was great, or anywhere close to my heavily-modified Caprice (which corners on rails), but with the non-stock tires on my Prius it isn't completely lacking as that poster implied. Certainly better than my Suburban.

 

Hate to tell you, Germans don't have a lock on performance and Japanese designers know how to make nimble cars, too.

 

I'm beginning to understand why you think Prius handling is good.

 

Well a heavy SUV certainly isn't going to be great on steering feel either, unless its a porsche. Changing out the tires might help a tiny bit, but you understand, that steering feel is not a strong point of the prius. This seems partially by choice by toyota with the overly boosted power steering, tire choice, and rolly live axle suspension.

Big SUVs and camryies as I said don't have decent steering feel, so that can't be the reason. Lots of people buy huge SUVs that are simply awful when it comes to some of these things.

Somehow I don't get more exerted when I'm driving a car that handles better. I wonder why that is. Does the hack make it steer more like the 5 trim? If it does where can I get it.

 

An example of the hack is here

AutoSpeed - Modifying Electric Power Steering

Even though the article is a little old, the schematic for my Gen III looks like it world work on it too. I would like to see that mod in the form of a little plug in module so there was no need to cut factory wires.

The 5 has a different electric motor and a bit different rack ratio which the mod wouldn't compensate for. What is nice is the ability to dial in the amount of assist you want. The more of the numb boost system you dial out, the more feel you get.

 

About Complaints! Louis C K on Conan; "Everything is amazing and nobody is happy"

 

The article brings up the question for me- does Canada have tax credits for Plug_ins the magnitude of USA? Anyway, in general, the article is more from Canadian view point. USA we are pushing EV as a USCongress policy choice and strong lobby groups etc.

 

Nope, I never said that. ;-)

My Caprice, yes. Nothing on the steering or suspension is stock. Next up is modifying the axle lengths and center of gravity.

 

For security and convenience a PHEV - BEV charger needs a timer controlled from the inside (secure site) - a regular outlet controlled by a circuit breaker would be less ideal. The higher voltage L2 chargers not only recharge faster but are more effient at recharging the HV battery ( there is some power loss in the recharging process ).

 

Disclosure: I'm pretty happy with my 3rd generation Prius. Even before I bought a Prius - I drove like the proverbial old man so I'm not a Speed Racer performance gearhead type. I have an engineering-computer-technical background though so I find the Prius Tech stuff very fascinating!

To get back to the OP question. Bob Wilson's initial observation and assertion that the initial warm up cost for the ICE in a plug-in is its main weakness wrt to energy efficiency when compared to a Battery EV(BEV) - is right on the money. On the flip side - the range limitations/recharging time of the HV battery is the main weakness for a BEV when compared to a plug-in because the ICE gives the plug-in a longer range plus a quick refueling time. The range limitation and recharging times become an issue for all day +600 mile road trips. Which makes me think of that SNL Roseanne Roseannadanna's saying "if it's not one thing, it's another!"

Wrt to the future energy tech: Some people are doing research creating bio-engineer bacteria/algae that creates a fuel substance like methane or alcohol like fuel to replace oil based gasoline while others are looking into creating sweet oil from coal or shale-oil. Also some are working on Air Lithium (rechargable) batteries and some are looking to commericalize Aluminum air (non rechargable) Batteries which have energy densities approaching that of gasoline. Can't say whether any of it will work out though..

I'm still hoping for a "Back to the Future" Mr Fusion generator that runs on garbage... I still produce a steady stream of that stuff...

 

RE: range limitation. I am 1 month into Leaf ownership. Charged to 100% last night and my GOM said 110 miles (probably optimistic) but I drove 38 miles yesterday and it said 74 miles left. So it was a tad pessimistic yesterday.
I drive between 20 and 60 miles a day - don't most people?

RE: electricity cost. HAHAHA. I pay 5 cents at night and usually am in the upper 4s in miles per kwh. So I am close enough to a penny a mile to call it that.

RE: power plants. There was a study out there that reported that we have enough plants to charge about 80% of the population driving EVs because of spare capacity at night. By the time we get to 80%, all of today's plants will have been decommissioned - because it is probably 50 years away.

Yes the problem with PHEVs is the warm up. I couldn't justify a PIP because of it. The complexity is an issue also - particularly with the Volt. But a really big practical issue with current PHEVs is cargo area. The only reason to buy a PHEV instead of a Leaf (for me) is road trips. None of the PHEVs have enough room except the PIP (whose range forces gas use every single day).

 

Those in cold climate areas may not be able to drive 60 miles with heat, a plug-in hybrid could be a better choice for them.

Nissan Leaf Range: How Much Does It Lose In The Cold?

 

Most Volt owners swear their car is an electric car. Isn't that why GM create the acronym, "EREV" ? It's supposed to convince you it's an EV ... yes ... I've been told by owners their Volt is an EV. ok ... what ever floats your boat.

That said, whether an EV or PHEV works out to be most economical turns on what you pay for it ... how much you spend on maintenance ... and how long you keep it (or how much you get for it upon trade-in). Your results will vary ... so there is no right answer.

Heck ... for that matter ... one needs to define "economy" if you try and determine best economy. Do you for instance count "trade in" value ?? After 2yrs? 5yrs? 10? Cost of replacement tires? Replacement traction packs? ... Filters? tuneups (or the lack there of)? Cost of smog checks? (or the lack there of)? It aint necessarily an easy formula.