Ford wants a new mileage standard

MPGe billboard advertising near NY Autoshow may cause confusion.

The Push Toward 'Green' Continues At The New York Auto Show - HybridCars.com

 

... Confusion if you're an imbecile. They're advertising MPGe for the Plug In Hybrids.

 

Hmm...

All the cliches have been said.- How do you get away with a crime? Make it Legal.

But I'd like to take a little different viewpoint here.

Trying to separate myself from the fact that it's "Ford" saying this, and in light of recent MPG scandals.

But specifically? Even though ironically Ford might be a big part of the problem, what Jim Farley is saying here as a whole is true. The EPA rating system IMO is in need a a lot of overhauling.

Hybrids, (and different types of Hybrids), full electric vehicles and Plug In Hybrids have changed the playing field.

I think consumers are confused, but I don't think they are tuning anything out. If Ford and other automakers continue to fudge EPA numbers ridiculously then eventually it will become a self fulfilling prophecy and Automakers will have poisoned the well so badly that nobody will trust the EPA claims of any automaker or vehicle.

But I happen to agree with a lot of what Jim Farley is saying, even if put against the backdrop of recent Ford actions it seems somewhat disingenuous.

The problem is only that in light of recent events it obviously sounds like The Fox calling for better protection of the Hen Houses.

 

For a reasonable fee, I'm pretty sure Toyota will help Ford straighten out their MPG problems.

 

Some will take it as 108 mpg regardless of miles driven, would advertise instead the 20 EV mile, without using gas.
Honda Accord; MPGe: 124city 105hwy – 13 EV miles
Fusion Energi; MPGe: 108city 92hwy – 20 EV miles

 

Of course they are the most complained about...they have the most sales.

Mike

 

Yeah, I saw that too...

I remember when people were complaining that the 2nd gen Prius didn't get 60 mpg per the old EPA rating. I also remember hypermilers back then were saying that the 2nd gen Prius could get 60 mpg but you have use hypermiling techniques to achieve it. Of course - this didn't sit well with a number of people and eventually the EPA rating was changed and the Prius rating was lowered to 50 mpg ... resulting in more people getting near the EPA rating ... The situation where Ford C-max hybrid's EPA rating is about 10 mpg higher than the reported common real world fuel efficiency results is very similar....this is like history repeating itself ....

I don't consider the new MPGe rating system useful or balanced representation of a vehicle's overall fuel efficiency. When a consumer has a choice of two(or more) energy sources for a multi-modal energy based system with different cost and different efficiency levels - the consumption - purchase of different types of energy sources are weighted - evaluated-balanced against its efficiency-workload potential-output. Hence, consumers when trying to maintain an economically sustainable energy usage pattern will (normally) plan and think of each different type of energy source usage and vary their usage of an energy source depending on the current situation, i.e. a consumer --when given the choice-- will vary the mixture ratio of what energy source to use in a multi-modal energy system base on the varying economic situation and function needs of the consumer. Hence, a fix standard mixture ratio fuel efficiency standard is not useful in the operation of a vehicle nor is it useful in projecting-evaluating the operational cost of a multimodal energy system or vehicle, i.e. the disclosure/specification of the energy efficiency metric of each (and every) energy source (choice) is a more useful metric than a fixed mixture ratio aggregate energy efficiency metric. Brazilian consumers do this all the time when they must can choose whether to use a regionally cheaper sugar cane ethanol or to use more a imported oil -based more expensive gasoline. The MPGe rating system is marketing fluff.

 

absolutely

I was agreeing with you mostly until here. The epa wanted to give a single number for comparison, and the DOE needs a number for cafe calculations. It is a fairly good number, as it is the distance you get on the energy equivalent whether you get your energy from the pump or the wall. Average Gasoline and electricity cost about the same for energy equivalent, and it is expected that in the future gasoline will spread to be more expensive. The cost of electricity varies widely throughout the country though, and the car sticker shows kwh/100 miles for calculations. With the spread the user will always charge at home versus the pump, but often will not charge at pay for public chargers (many are free or inexpensive with a subscription). Given how varied the mix is, the epa can not drill down to energy source, nor should it. Most people would plug in even if mpge was lower than mpg.

 

Plug-in and other multi-modal energy source vehicles requires a more energy savvy user which I would venture is morely likely to find a one energy metric insultingly meaningless. Consumers who are looking for a aggregate fuel efficiency metric for a multi-modal energy source vehicle are not only fooling themselves but identify themselve as being not ready for making the choices that a multi-modal energy source vehicle requires them to make.

 

We have at least a couple of laws requiring auto makers slap numbers on a sticker before they sell cars. The epa had to come up with something, and I don't find it bad at all.

I doubt a energy savvy user is insulted. We do have some parties with vested interests that do not want plug-ins sold. They seem to want to either make this number mean more than it does, or give the sticker a high penalty. Other information is on the sticker, and the other information is readily available. For any of the convoluted schemes proposed, the EPA would end up requiring different stickers in every little electricity district. So again what would you propose is required by law on a sticker. Would a car company need to change the sticker every few months when a power plant is built or shut down? There are practical problems with anti-plug-in schemes.

 

Get off the high horse. The end goal is for PHEVs and EVs to appeal to the mass market and that includes people who have absolutely no interest in doing detailed analysis of energy usage. MPGe in that regard works well as it gives an easy to use direct comparison between gasoline based economy vs electric. A more appropriate metric would be miles/KWh or more appropriately km/KWh, but you would have a difficult time appealing to the most amount of people with that metric. The goal is to sell the most amount of cars and automakers will do what they think is more appropriate to that end.

 

I could not more strongly disagree.

The MPGe metric does not provide an accurate relative measure of energy efficiency. In the worst scenario, the MPGe is a misleading specification and may create potential legal problems down the road.

When an EPA ratings is too optimistic and does not match up with the real world - non-first-time-adapter drivers that make up most of the mass market will feel cheated and some of those unhappy drivers like in the case of the Honda Civic Hybrid will sue for false advertisement.

Focusing only on selling the most cars per month is very short sighted - there is more to the car business than just monthly sales numbers of new cars sold.

 

Honda said the same thing in defense of the EPA rating of their 2nd generation Honda Civic Hybrid. That they were only quoting the EPA rating of the HCH-II in their advertisements but, this did not shield them from a lawsuit with respect to the HCH-II's real world less than stellar fuel efficiency performance in a recent lawsuit.

MPGe mislead because it tries create a single estimate for fuel efficiency by an arbitrary fixed mixture of both gas and electricity. The EPA rating for both BEVs and Plug-ins should be simple and easy to understand. My preference is to have separate electric only rating section (miles/kwh, range, recharging time) .

I am not anti Plug-in or anti-BEV - I just think consumers can be and are much smarter when they need to be. For most of those in the motor vehicle mass market - buying a motor vehicle is a major purchase. As the range of energy cost swing back and forth and get noticably more and more expensive - consumer scrutiny will only increase. As consumers try to adapt to the new energy environment, in an open market place -- it will only take the perception of a business or source as being misleading to make consumers look in another direction.

Reputation take a long time to earn but it can destroyed in a flash - every business needs to guard it's reputation.

 

Those fuel numbers are interesting showing Prius at 42 mpg and C-Max at 37 mpg. I routinely get 50 mpg in the Prius and I don't drive aggressively for mpg.

I wonder if I would get similar results with the C-MAX which would be 44 mpg in a C-MAX.

I got a call from the Ford Dealer that he has a Fusion Energi for me to test drive (Thursday). If could get 44 mpg in the Fusion with 20 miles of EV would give me 75 mpg on my three days of commuting and pure EV for my around town. I would trade up to the Fusion for US made, cooler look, comfortable power seats, blind spot indicators, auto-dimming mirror, auto/on/off headlights and 40% mileage improvement over my current 50 mpg average.

 

MPGe - Honda Accord / Fusion Energi / Chevy Volt
Honda Accord; MPGe: 124city 105hwy – Phev-13 / HV combined: 46mpg
Fusion Energi; MPGe: 108city 92hwy – Phev-20 /HV combined: 43mpg
Chevy Volt; MPGe: 101city 93hwy – Phev-38 /HV combined: 37mpg

I don't think Honda should advertise the 124 mpge(meaningless).
Ford could advertise the 20-mile ev/combined 43 mpg which is pretty good I think.
The Chevy Volt with the lowest mpge here, has the best numbers by far.
When I see MPGe Advertisings; marketing People. are "up to no good".

 

Fusion Energi's 20 ev/43 mpg is pretty good and you may like everything else about the car, but take a good look at the 8 cubic ft of trunk cargo space to see if it would work for you. I think these plug-ins should be liftbacks, Audi 7/Model S like.

 

Snarking at Ford aside, what would be a good metric instead of MPG.

Well-to-wheels BTUs / Mile?

 

I heard (will soon find out) that Fusion Energi's back seats will fold flat which is all I really need. Don't need a big trunk. Gorgeous car with lots of techie stuff standard and optional. If can get a realistic 43 on hybrid and 20 miles EV, I could jump my overall average to 75 mpg. I try to double every 3 years but this is year one on the Prius so going to Ford Energy at 75 mpg I'd have to get 150 mpg in 2016, the Tesla X at $70K would be that car.

 

Walter is right. It has nothing to do with arrogance.

EVs now (to the extent they appeal at all) are bought by people who are not confused by a watt, and often prioritize efficiency. MPGe appeals to a few thousand Volt buyers.

EVs in the murky future might appeal to people who ask "what car is cheaper?"