Deadly CO Generators vs Prius Inverter

Bummer. Even with the car locked, and a remotely signalling alarm system (i.e. your house lights go out)?

..and how do you avoid the insurance company denying coverage unless you PROVE you didn't leave it running?

 

I got one that runs off Natural Gas, Propane or Gasoline. I also ran a Natural gas line with a quick connect. Chances are slim I will lose Natural gas, but if it happens I can move to propane.

Powerland Tri-Fuel Gasoline Propane Natural Gas Generator 10000 Watt 16 HP- Ship in 4-6 wks

 

Drop the 'h', make those 1.5kW or 1,500W.

I bet not. Take a look at BWilson's chart of energy output vs fuel use, posted to another thread. His Prius inverter system is not up at the top -- commercial generators hit 6kWh/gallon at peak performance -- but at 4 kWh/gallon, it does match up with them under lighter loads.

The generator you link has some specs posted elsewhere. If it meets those specs, it puts out only 2.8 kWh/gallon. And it is not CARB compliant, not for sale in California. So get a CO detector to go along with it.

 

Bob,

I did a rough calculation and at full load my generator runs about 20% efficiency (120k BTU/gal of e10, 7kW for an hour). Not bad for an ancient monster (there is also a bit of oil burned and a significant amount of noise ).

I bought mine at an auction. Two small ones went for over $300 each; I was the only bidder on this one). I did have to spend some money to hook it up to my breaker panel (in a somewhat questionable manner - a heavy duty cable with two twist-lock plugs, a dedicated 30 amp 220 breaker to act as a secondary main breaker and an outlet box with a Twist-lock socket.).

JeffD

 

As I've reported elsewhere, I ran my steam boiler, a couple of 60W equivalent LED lights, internet and phone connections, internet radio, iPhone charger and laptop charger on an 80W inverter plugged into the lighter socket of my C for 54 hours after Sandy.

I pulled the Prius into a tight corner next to the house, ran an extension cord through a tiny gap at the top of the window, locked the doors with the physical key, and put my wife's car right behind it. It was still there when I was done.

 

...not sure why but CO2 is not normally measured in confined spaces (O2, toxics (CO/H2S), flammables yes). CO2 is not considered toxic but over 3 to 5% is not good.

Let's say you have a closed, air-tight garage at 4000-ft3. If I calc'ed correctly, burning 1-gal gaso depletes 250 ft3 O2 and makes 167 ft3 CO2. Room O2 would be down to 15% on O2 (yikes unsafe). CO2 would be +4% not good but the real problem is O2 loss. Of course there would be a vacuum in the room and a giant sucking sound when you opened the door, so this is hypothetical worse case sceanrio.

 

Can you post your math? Intuitively this doesn't sound right. CO2 is fairly low concentration (0.0003 or so) while O2 is around 0.2, seems like converting almost the same amounts should have a far greater affect on CO2 than O2. I note in defense of my intuition that humans trigger breathing based on CO2 concentrations, not O2.

 

Here's my calcs (not claiming it's error-free yet):
made this equation up
CH2(gasoline) + 3/2 O2 ---> Co2 + H2o
Gallon of Gaso at 3785 ccs/gal x 0.75 density = 2840 grams @ 85 wt% carbon & 15 wt% hydrogen
So that gives you 5.3-lbs carbon = 0.44 moles x 380 Ft3/mole = 167 ft3 CO2 made
O2 = 3/2 x 167 = 250 ft3 consumed
I neglected the water, a lot is made so this would tend to say pressure is constant assumimg some condensation. Take a garage at 20x20 with a 10-ft ceiling = 4000 ft3 @ 21% O2 = 850 ft3 O2 to start off

But now I am trying to understand why the egg gets sucked into the bottle in the classic school experiment.

 

Is this portion really unsafe for normal healthy people, at least at sea level? It corresponds to oxygen's partial pressure at about 7000 to 8000 feet, similar to the pressure altitude allowed in commercial aircraft cabins.

I am aware that some people have problems in aircraft, and that newer aircraft are addressing this by aiming for lower pressure altitudes.

 

I run my generator in my two car garage with a long flexible exhaust pipe that reaches a few feet outside the garage door. With the door open about a foot, it does get quite warm in the garage. I should put a CO detector in the garage, but the one in the adjacent basement doesn't go off when the generator runs for a couple of hours (one tank of gas).

JeffD

 

Do keep in mind with most combustion processes CO is generated when the O2 is starved. This starvation occurs when the exhaust is mixed into the intake. For example, a closed room. Initially CO production in a properly adjusted flame is almost zero. As exhaust CO2 builds up along with H2O vapour the combustion process becomes less efficient. CO is the result. It doesn't take much to be toxic. The CO is bonded with the hemoglobin in your blood before O2 can and your body can't release it like it can with O2. Essentially your blood cells are "used up" and must be replaced. This takes a -long- time, which is why CO poisoning can be so serious and takes so long for recovery (for those lucky enough to survive!). Loss of consciousness usually makes the process end in tragedy.

 

15% O2 would be very dangerous. Most liberal lower safe limit is generally 19.5% O2. This is why confined space entry is very hazardous in industry/farming/sewers etc . Personally I prefer to set the limit at close to full air 21%. I am not sure how human lung works from a physiological persepctive but to my knowledge the key safety parameter is %O2 in the lungs at any altitude. I know CO binds with the hemoglobin stronger than O2.

Now keep on mind it would be probably be very hard to do in your garage. By the time you burned a gallon of gasoline in your Prius it would probably be 24-hrs and there would be some air changes. But lets say you are not aware of this and you have a generator and a 2 Prii going in your garage or a kero heater. Eventually if you pulled a lot of the O2 out of the room you would probably start making CO, but I am thinking your health would be compromised before the CO appeared. Therefore CO detector is good - tells you if the there is a leak of exhuast, but I don't believe monitoring CO alone is enough to tell you when you went below the safe O2 limit.

As I write this I am thinking I personally have not been safe enough in this regards...lets face it this applies to gas fireplaces, kero heaters and all that stuff I like to fire-up.

 

Talking about things you like to fire up. I just built this yesterday.



I bought a 10KW tri-fuel generator after the power outage from Sandy. I ran a gas line to the side of the house to power it. When I was running the line I decided to run a line for the gas grill. Then I thought it would be nice to convert my little fire pit to natural gas. I finished that yesterday.

Next I am going to build natural gas Tiki torches using these.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Outdoor-Gas-Light-Open-Flame-Burner-NG-Part-OFB-N-/110968999807?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d6448f7f

 

...OK well here you go Corwyn, CO2 meter on Amazon sounds like a useful device.

Amazon.com: Indoor Air Quality Meter - CO2, Temperature & Relative Humidity: Home Improvement

 

Thanks. Should I be worried that it thinks 783 ppm is 'normal'? Yikes.

 

For CO2 783 ppm sounds fine...figure what? 400 ppm in the atmosphere at Muana Loa, and that's in the middle of nowhere. By the time the first Calfornian exhales, we're probably at 500 ppm CO2 background.

Per the comments, one reviewer states that less than 1000 ppm CO2 is one recommended target for long term working (eg; office etc). However, nuke submarines try to keep CO2 below 8000 ppm in the breathing air. Typical levels in a sub would be 3000-5000 ppm CO2, but can get as high as 10,000 ppm (1%), which is the upper limit of the Amazon monitoring device.

Interesting article (one study says excess CO2 impairs decision making)
Claim: CO2 makes you stupid? Ask a submariner that question | Watts Up With That?

 

I used my Prius together with an inverter to power the ignition system of my hydronic boiler during the recent power outage in NJ. The boiler ignition only used 9 watts standby and about 30 watts when firing. Using this arrangement for so little power draw proved very fuel inefficient. After one night I moved the inverter to a conventional car battery where it lasted for days. An issue with this second arrangement was that the inverter sounded an alarm and dropped out at anything below 11.5 volts. Ideally, one would need a deep cycle battery with an inverter that would operate at lower battery voltages.