And here we go... first Ford lawsuit for not meeting its EPA stickers

Discussion in 'Ford/Lincoln Hybrids and EVs' started by El Cuajinais, Dec 27, 2012.

Page 1 of 4
  1. El Cuajinais

    El Cuajinais Junior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    31
    10
    0
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    2013 Ford Hybrids' Gas Mileage Generates First Lawsuit

    I wonder which of the these is the cause for the huge disparity:
    1. EPA tests are not good and need to be updated to better reflect reality.
    2. Cold temperatures are not being accounted for.
    3. The fact that the Ford does not provide an Eco mode that modulates the accelerator pedal to prevent hard accelerations, all in the name of “being fun to drive”.
    4. Ford gamed the system by creating a car that would ACE the EPA test even though they knew the real-world mileage would be way off.
    5. Bad design and Ford flat out fudged the numbers.

    Personally if the reason is 3-5 I’m glad they are getting sued. It makes for a level playing field for the automakers. That 47 MPG combined on the CMAX sticker has to have cost Toyota a boatload of Prius v sales.

    I especially dislike reason number 3 which looks to be the one the Ford executives are pushing. “It’s all on how you drive” they say. You need to have a boring ride or a “detuned” vehicle to achieve great MPG. They want to have their cake and eat it too. You can’t just claim that your car handles better, is more peppy and fun than the competition; AND gets more MPG than the competition. They are well aware that those two claims are mutually exclusive. That kind of talk is plain deceitful.

    Using their argument I can start a food chain of diet super tasty fat-dripping hamburgers. All I need to do is instead of publishing the calories, I publish their glycemic indices.

    ***puts B.S. Exec Hat on***
    “Some of our competitors make bland-tasting burgers. Ours are different, they are tastier and more satisfying. Of course achieving the desired glycemic index result depends on how you eat your burger. Some people like to eat quickly while others like to take their time. We give them the choice”. All while neglecting to mention that to get the published glycemic index result, one would need to eat a pace of 4 hours per burger. Plus in reality the restaurant seats would be uncomfortable to encourage people to eat quickly so they are fooled into thinking they are not sacrificing anything and yet they are consuming a low glycemic index food. (This last part is analogous to the Ford hybrids not having an Eco mode)

    What a load of bull. Then again if the EPA discrepancy is for reasons 1-2, I hope the suit does not fall through.
     
    #1 El Cuajinais, Dec 27, 2012
  2. acdii

    acdii Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    1,124
    131
    0
    These. I just filled up, and got 34.1 MPG in my Fusion. I have tried every trick I can think of and not get this car up to even 40 MPG. I can always get better than this in my 2010 in this weather, without trying. This morning, I did get it to 38.8, computed, and that was doing the best hypermileing I know how.

    Under Ideal city conditions, I can see it easily surpassing 47, but there is no way in hell this car will ever get 47 on the highway, that is just too far fetched.
    I know, I tried, I even used a technique that got me 65 MPG in a Prius over a 600 mile trip. Best I saw was 38.
     
    #2 acdii, Dec 27, 2012
  3. rkk

    rkk Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    33
    18
    0
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    My vote is number 4.
     
    #3 rkk, Dec 27, 2012
  4. KK6PD

    KK6PD _ . _ . / _ _ . _

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2008
    4,003
    946
    118
    Location:
    Los Angeles Foothills
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Cry havoc, and let loose the Dogs of War!
    Having watched that snooty commercial for the Fusion, I just knew they were not going to be real world results!This person should speak with the lady that sued Honda!
     
    #4 KK6PD, Dec 27, 2012
  5. Air_Boss

    Air_Boss Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    4,089
    1,129
    0
    Location:
    New Yawk
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Five
    Wow, this sounds vaguely like Boeing claims versus reality -- oh, right, Mulalley...
     
    #5 Air_Boss, Dec 27, 2012
  6. acdii

    acdii Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    1,124
    131
    0
    Hmm you know, a Toyota Avalon Hybrid is looking like a really nice car.

    Bet it can get its EPA numbers right off the bat even in cold weather. I mean if my 2007 Prius did, why not the Avalon? Would look pretty bad for Ford to have a 2013 used Hybrid sitting on a Toyota used car lot too.
     
    #6 acdii, Dec 27, 2012
  7. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    558
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    http://www.mccunewright.com/assets/news/Pitkin-FILED-COMPLAINT.pdf

    I wonder if they have any evidence to support their claim.
     
    #7 John H, Dec 27, 2012
  8. RRxing

    RRxing Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    2,526
    1,801
    0
    Location:
    NEPA
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    Limited
    Yeah, the FFH may not make its EPA numbers, but it is the world's first commercially available flying car! :D
     
    #8 RRxing, Dec 27, 2012
  9. R-P

    R-P Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2011
    804
    288
    0
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Could someone link the above link in here?

    :cry:
     
    #9 R-P, Dec 27, 2012
  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,625
    4,157
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    Class-action lawsuit disputes Ford on C-Max, Fusion hybrid mileage claims | The Detroit News | detroitnews.com

    We know who will be next to be sued



    Although I consider this a frivolous lawsuit, Ford definitely has not done right by you. They created a bit of a PR problem with the advertising campaign also. If they treat other customers the way they have been treating you, its likely to cause more lawsuits.
     
    #10 austingreen, Dec 27, 2012
  11. acdii

    acdii Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    1,124
    131
    0
    Yep, their attitude was, hey the car said it gets this, so deal with it. My gas receipts say otherwise.
     
    #11 acdii, Dec 27, 2012
  12. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2008
    8,245
    1,202
    0
    Location:
    NorCal
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    C-Max hybrid -
    ** 3,600 lb curb weight
    ** 225 width tires
    ** 188 total system horsepower
    ** must have higher Cd than Pri liftback

    No way C-Max gets near 47 mpg combined for typical drivers.

    Not that I don't like C-Max. I've looked it over a couple times, and there are some very intriguing qualities about it.
     
    #12 cycledrum, Dec 27, 2012
  13. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,625
    4,157
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    While I agree there, this law firm has suites in against GM and Honda. The law is about what a car does on the EPA test, if it was what the car gets at CR then that law firm would be able to just print money.
     
    #13 austingreen, Dec 27, 2012
  14. acdii

    acdii Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    1,124
    131
    0
    I will be more than happy to bring both my cars to the EPA and let them test them, then we will know for sure. Considering the old one does better than the new one, maybe it should be rated at 47 too. [/sarcasm]
     
    #14 acdii, Dec 27, 2012
  15. ahmeow

    ahmeow Prius Lover

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2010
    366
    70
    0
    Location:
    North CA
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Just the reliability of Prius/Toyota will make Ford to dream for long in their cars but will be unable to achieve.
     
    #15 ahmeow, Dec 27, 2012
    dbcassidy likes this.
  16. acdii

    acdii Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    1,124
    131
    0
    Ford has better quality than Toyota, and is just as reliable! They just lied about the 47 MPG, that's what has me ticked at Ford. We have a 1995 Mercury Grand Marquis in our garage with 130K miles on it, and it still runs and drives like a champ, still all on one piece, and still looks good after all these years.
     
    #16 acdii, Dec 27, 2012
    John Hatchett likes this.
  17. John H

    John H Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2012
    2,208
    558
    0
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I was about to chime in on the legendary quality of Ford trucks, head and shoulders above the Toyota offerings, despite the publicity stunt with the space shuttle.
     
    #17 John H, Dec 27, 2012
  18. acdii

    acdii Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    1,124
    131
    0
    LOL I forgot about that, but yeah, Ford does make dang good trucks, and they last a long time provided you dont do some dumbass thing like leave them parked outside for a few months to rust up. Rather not say how I know that......
     
    #18 acdii, Dec 27, 2012
    dbcassidy likes this.
  19. JimN

    JimN Let the games begin!

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    7,028
    1,116
    0
    Location:
    South Jersey
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    V
    Here's the test procedure: Detailed Test Information

    Simulate the procedure as best you can out in the wild. Use of the car's displays is acceptable. A ScanGauge is better.

    If you are "close" to the EPA's numbers you don't have a right to complain. How close is close? 2%? 5%? I don't know. However, in my opinion a 5% real world difference is close and within the margin of error for all the variables that we can't control.

    If you are off 15% to 20% then I'd say you have a legitimate case to have the EPA retest the vehicle.

    If anyone is really serious about confirming the EPA FE numbers then I recommend contacting Dr. Joel Anstrom of the Larson Technical Institute at Penn State at [email protected]. The LTI has a test track and dyno that are used to certify the reliability of buses and calculate their official FE. This could be a legitimate & very interesting research program in line with their charter. I'd say if the numbers achieved at the LTI are significantly different (and he'll know what significant is) then that would be good evidence to push for an official re-certification and damages from Ford.


     
    #19 JimN, Dec 27, 2012
  20. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    13,625
    4,157
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX, USA
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    N/A
    According to Detroit News there evidence is the CR test, in other words none at all. This firm has sued Honda and GM for the same thing.

    EPA might test 1 ford vehicle if they think its off, but they don't test individual's vehicles. They only test a small proportion of cars and depend on manufacturers to test most.
     
    #20 austingreen, Dec 27, 2012
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 4