Warming up the car in winter

I did some Christmas shopping today, out amongst the chaos.

There was a vehicle in the parking lot left idling... a Hummer. Figures.

It was getting 0 MPG. I was averaging 140 MPG.

 

i wonder if he warmed it up for 15 minutes before leaving home?

 

That's like trying to tell some people: when the refill indicator blinks, stop for gas. We'd get reports from owners ignoring the message anyway and running out. There's an an intense desire to push it, to squeeze out the maximum.

Some of us don't feel as strongly compelled.

 

That's what the electric heated seats are for. Pull directed heat do your backside rather than a heating coil in the HVAC system. BTW, my 2005 Prius heater worked faster than any car I ever had. But with the PIP, using a lot of electric for the heater defeats the advertising of electric-only range...

 

Heater drain on battery-capacity is among my favorite plug-in topics. A year before Volt was rolled out, the winter data was always extremely vague. I pointed out how Leaf's range estimator took climate-control into account, even including a photo in some posts. Those enthusiasts got angry, claiming my actual intent was to undermine to make the plug-in Prius appear better. They knew even back then taking advantage of the engine for heat would be an overall benefit. Sure enough, today's running around (starting with a stop at the coffee-shop) provided the proof they didn't want to acknowledge.

14°F outside. 9.0 miles. 55 mph maximum. I certainly wasn't going to be cold. The heater was turned on the moment I left the driveway. It took 9 minutes for the coolant to reach the initial shutoff point for the 75°F setting. With all the up & down from hills and stoplights to contend with, seeing 53 MPG for the average at that point was quite redeeming. I was at precisely the halfway point. From there on would be mostly EV. The engine only briefly came on then. I accelerated briskly to trigger it, since the result in a replenish of both heat & electricity. Upon reaching the coffee-shop, there was still 5.9 estimated miles of EV range remaining. The overall average displayed was 86 MPG.

Long story short, they apparently were right. That does indeed cast a better light on Prius. But then again, the intent was always full disclosure. Leaving out detail is not constructive. They were providing annual consumption estimates not taking effects of the heater into account.

Prius PHV is a plug-in hybrid. The purpose is to boost MPG, not to be an EV. With my efficiency averaging in the 70's here in Minnesota, that most definitely is a MPG boost from the 40's I saw with the 2010. So what if the engine runs from time to time for heat. Purpose fulfilled.

 

With the FRONT Defrost button off, the Fan and the Windshield/Feet Vent position puts plenty of air to the Windshield (LO setting). This is especially true in dry environments. Out here in Utah it was 34 with a humidity of 40%, I had no problems clearing the slight fog that formed. I can even turn off the fan and crack a back window and have some air pulled through the air ducts. You must have the setting on outside air of course.

My feet do get a bit cold.

 

Bisco have you tested this? I don't think this is true. If everything is warmed up why would the ice start.

 

i didn't say that. i said if you want heat, you'll need to burn some gas. how long do you think pre heated coolant is going to stay warm with cold air blowing over it from the front of the car and cold air blowing over it from the cabin?

i haven't tested it, so i could be wrong, but i don't imagine the ice will stay off very long.

 

because the block heater heats the engine block, not the coolant. at the very least, the engine would need to run for a very short time to cycle all of the coolant and bring it up to the proper temperature.
now, with a block heater, this will take much less time. but it will still need to happen.
plus, as bisco pointed out, the coolant will cool…while you're driving in cold temperatures. so ice will need to kick on periodically to keep it warm.

 

I was not one of the volt folks here back before the rollout.. but I was at gm-volt.com
Your comments then were just as off-the-mark then as it is now. And of course you cherry pick data and ignore kWh used..

Its good you like your PiP, but don't pretend not giving people an EV-based or precondition heating choice really a good solution or that you were somehow "right" about the volt having a problem with heating.

With proper battery capacity EV heating is not a problem. Yes it impact range a bit, but that is to be expected.
Its only an issue with a BEV that might get stranded or on a car with a punny battery.

86MPG is a really bad day for most volt drivers, and for a 9mile trip is very poor for a PHEV. My commute is 36-45 miles depending on errands -- my Jan 2012 overall MPG was 774mpg.. The voltstat/net Cold-climate-volt group's Dec2012 MPG is 124mpg.

Its true that in the 2011's like mine, the car was configured to Fire the ICE if the temp was < 25F and the coolant is < 150F, but in the 17miles to work on ultra-cold days, that uses .07 gallons (242MPG). Luckily only some days are that cold. But it was found to not be necessary to use the ICE at 25F, and the 2013's now allow config of that temp.

The Volt does allow "preconditioning" to heat it while still plugged in.
Not having the ability to preheat the car was just cost cutting (it could have been an option for those that want it).
Having to use a ceramic heater as in this post Warming up the car in winter | PriusChat, is silly and potentially dangerous.

Just curious.. how many here would have paid, say, $500 for an option to have EV heat?

 

I own my phv since only a few days but here is what I experienced so far about cold weather driving (5°F) on a 10 miles commute that is highway for 1/3 and city for 2/3 of the drive. The car is in a non-heated garage. The ice start at the beginning and will remain on for at least the first 4 miles if I keep the heat on (since i start with highway driving) but if I set the temp to Lo, the ICE will shut off and by using windshield defrost and the fan at a low level, I dont have any trouble with fogging. However, the air entering the cabin doesnt seem to be heated at all so it gets a little cold inside and when I'm back on the highway, the ice start after two miles of 55 mph driving. I think that a lot of cold air is cooling the coolant two much and since the coolant is used to control the battery temperature, the ice has to run in order to generate heat.

Overall, I think that heating the cabin from the ice is really a good thing if you are going to use all the ev miles anyway since you just use these miles on a longer period instead of all at the beginning. This is more efficient because it uses energy that would have been wasted anyway instead of the energy you paid for from the grid and we have to keep in mind that this car is supposed to be green and most of the electricity isnt produced in a green way. To me, the PIP seems to be more toward using every bit of energy (electricity or gas) as efficiently as possible and less about the desire of driving on electricity alone.

On really short trips, its kind of frustrating to not being able to drive without the engine. Maybe the best of both worlds would be to be able to preheat the coolant and the cabin while the car is plugged but without using energy from the battery to heat the car when you are on the road. This would at least give you the opportunity to use ev on short trips. So far, this is the only complaint I have about the car and I would have definately paid an extra for a option like this. But, wait... I already paid 3k more than the US model so maybe I could have it as a standard feature!

 

WOW, both silly and dangerous. My process is neither of those things.

 

I just drive in EV in the summer and fall season, and with a full tank of gas left over since July I just drive in HV till I've used up 6 gallons of gas, it's a no brainer!

 

Sorry I was not trying to be insulting about your solution. I can see why you did it.

I said silly because adding a resistive electric heater directly to the car's ducting is very straightforward and could be done safely for <$100 in cost. And having electric-based remote pre-heating just makes sense. Your solution requires you plugging in and setting up stuff and then taking it down every day. I think it is it silly that toyota did not provide for that at least as an option for EV heat. My question was how many people would pay for such an option (just as heated seats are in an option package for many cars).


Even your own second posting

Said toyota should have provide for electric heating, at least while plugged in.


I said potentially dangerous because of the risk of a space heater sitting on carpet material unattended. 22000 fires are year are caused be space heaters and hundreds of deaths. 8-10% of space heater fires are attributed to their use on carpet. A friend of mine's apartment was burned and the firre department said it was likely the space heater used on their carpet that caused it -- they escaped with only minor injury, but it made me rather aware of their dangers.

I'm sure one can do it safely, it is just that there are potential dangers in using a space heater. At least you are using a cermaic type, but did you find a space heater that said is was designed for use in a car or on unattended used on carpet, or did you just get a cheap one and ignore its safety warnings that came with the unit? Does it have a knock over cut off switch and as internal overheat protection?
E.g. see this site on safety Space Heaters and/or this thread on their use in cars.. Space heater to warm interior of car - E46Fanatics
Nothing in your post mentioned any type of safety concerns, all I was saying is that it could be dangerous.

 

5 degrees?

 

My son bought me a heated seat cushion for my car. I have the ICE running less because I don't need the heat on as much in the car. Just got it so I need to see how much less gas I use with it.

 

Bisco said "you can preheat the block and the coolant all you want" in his example.

I was not responding to how long the coolant would last. John maybe able to answer how long he can go with heat (on a warm engine) before the engine re-fires. Even then the time the engine heat last, will probably change with ambient temperature and how warm you have the system set.

 

These are the temperature we get right now in Canada. Temperature will get as low as -22°F between january and March. (-30 °C). We'll see how the PiP can handle these temperatures. But my Gen-II always start like a new car even with these temperatures.

 

do you have block heater?

 

since the regular prius ice has to maintain a certain ice temp all the time for emissions, it will be intereting to see if your mpg's go up noticeably.