improving emissions and fuel economy

This could be a growing market for folks who want a "souped up final ride"

DBCassidy

 

I stopped reading at quadrojet.

 

Now that the thread is in the right forum, I feel comfortable starting with a synopsis:

Ok, a couple of things:

• How much real money has been spent on this project? The numbers vary from $800, $3,500, and a bunch of extra stuff (air suspension, second ECU and injectors, alternators, and radiators) that were never costed.
• Was all the labor 'free'?
• Where are the pictures? We don't care about Texas weathered paint as much as getting an idea of the current body. Also, include photos of the engine compartment.
• Is it that hard to get the weight measured?
• Is it that hard to do a timed, maximum acceleration so we can calculate the peak HP? If you have a Garmin Nuvi, it records a log that can be used to accurately calculate acceleration over time.
• Is it that hard to do a 'roll-down' test to measure the aerodynamic and rolling drag? Again, a Gramin Nuvi would provide the data needed to analyze the vehicle drag.
• Can you just give us the quantity of fuel used to top-off a tank after starting with a full tank and the miles? That "45-30.1" is really bogus. It looks more like 30.1 gallons used to go ~300 miles, closer to 10 MPG.

There is way too much funny math going on as well as absence of metrics. The funny fuel situation is especially strange . . . so you pull into a gas station and add "x" lead additive and "y" 114 octane treatment at what cost? How do you get the ratios right?

Serious, there is not enough metrics and the one MPG example math looks funny.

Bob Wilson

 

Thanks! This clears up some unknowns:

There are a bunch of web pages that will do the math so I started with:
0-60 mph Calculator for Cars

It looks you get 7.508 second with:

• 383 hp
• 6,500 lbs curb weight
• rear wheel drive
• automatic transmission

This begins to make a lot more sense and sets a lower boundary on the performance. Note this is power at the tires and does not include transmission and drive train losses.

Have you tried just premium in the car without the additives? It may be they are not doing anything for you. As a suggested protocol:

1. Put a 5 gallon container of just premium in the back, make sure it is secure.
2. Run the car dry so you'll know exactly what you have.
3. Add the 5 gallons and drive to a gas station with trusted premium to fill up. (If you know the gas tank capacity, you can now measure how much of the 5 gallons it took to reach the station.) A 5 gallon tank at 10 MPG should give you a 50 mile range. Use a second spare can if you think it might need more. Gas weights 6 lbs/gallon so you want to be able to heft the 30 lbs without a whole lot of spillage (fire hazard.)
4. On the way, see if you can induce "knock" (back off quickly if it does.) This lets you know for sure if the additives are really needed or just another way to transfer you bucks to the auto store.
5. Do your mix at the station IF there is evidence of knock. But now you'll start to baseline the ratio.

Bob Wilson

 

Understand I'm mostly interested in the engineering and if we can get some better metrics, it may be possible to squeeze out better performance. But it needs to be done piece-wise, not shotgun.

Bob Wilson

 

First, I thank you for continuing the thread. There aren't a whole lot of folks around who really understand what we're talking about:

The 0-60 mph time and vehicle mass is all it takes to calculate the change in kinetic energy over the interval. This energy change over the interval defines the power needed to achieve that performance. IF you can add enough mass to avoid wheel spin, the change in weight will automatically be factored in and the net horsepower will be more accurate.

BTW, I agree with the 17% transmission loss estimate. A lot of heat is dumped overboard from that source. Of all the "low hanging fruit," a good, manual transmission and heavy duty clutch would be the easiest. You'd probably save 5% of the vehicle weight and reduce transmission losses to 6-8%.

Do you have a way to pipe 'cold' air to the carb vs the radiator heated air? Reducing air inlet temperature will give you more charge and reduce the knock risk.

Hummm, ask your programmer if a laptop can monitor any metrics from the ECU. Does it have an OBD interface port even if you don't have the connector in the cabin? This could give you excellent data even with a crappy OBD reader but really great data with a Scanguage. You might not see everything of interest but there could be a lot of good info.

I used to have an iPod Touch, the WiFi only version of an iPhone without a camera. Then one day it slipped and took a coffee baptism and now only exists in electronic heaven. I went to replace it and found an iPad for twice the price but four times the screen area . . . that was an easy sale. I also bought a case with a built-in, Bluetooth keyboard. This has become my constant companion.

No problem here. I'm a firm believer in the right tool for the right job. To my eyes, you've adapted the largest station wagon available to your needs.

I fully understand. Until I had to replace my crashed 91 Camry and chose a Prius, I really didn't pay much attention to cars. I had rebuilt a 1500 cc VW engine (I'd put in a centrifical advance distributor, headers, and replaced the cross-belted tires with early radials; ) three clutch changes in the one of the worlds worst small cars, a Chevy Chevette; dealt with a Model A Ford in high school, and; kept my wife's 400 cu. Fury wagon running. Out on the carport is her 1993 Coachman RV that hasn't moved since repairs two years ago (her birthday present ... horse, water, drink.) But my attitude changed after we got our first, 2003 Prius.

I found the only people who understood what I was talking about were the other gear heads at work . . . the guys with a 10-20 year old Corvette and a Mustang convertible. They understood the vocabulary but didn't really understand how close to the metal Prius technical stuff people can get. But that was OK, I just needed someone to bounce ideas off of who at least had a clue.

I've been to other car forums and noticed how few really understand the technology and engineering. I don't fault ignorance but after a while you get tired to talking to others whose eyes glaze over with bolvine ignorance and you realized 'the lights are on but no one is home.' They are alive but their brains are disengaged.

Bob Wilson

 

I stopped reading at hearse and started thinking of how great the car would be to pick up goth chicks.

 

PriusChat is good but as I was driving back to the house, I thought I'd suggest:

Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com

These are efficiency, gear-heads, and one of the few sites where folks are 'non-demoninational' about improving the efficiency of their ride or project. I think if you were to post an introduction of your project you'd find a lot of willing and helpful suggestions.

PriusChat is more advocacy and as you've discovered, we're generally 'not mean' about it. If you're posting in the right forum and not making a pest of yourself, folks are fairly tolerant. There are actually 'pest' forums (aka., Fred's House of Pancakes.) PriusChat has a good mix of technologists and advocates.

With rare exception, I don't think we're out to 'convert the world'. But it seems we get a few 'missionaries' trying to convert us (aka., diesel and EV/Volt) and the occasional anarchist trying to 'leave a pile.' With one or two exceptions, facts and data are a powerful 'clue by four' and life moves on.

Bob Wilson

 

Just a couple of late thoughts IF you are into experimentation:

• Check if your scanner can record any metrics such as MAF, ICE rpm, and poke around to see if the transmission _MIGHT_ have torque. These three are enough to make a BSFC chart for engine efficiency to look for 'sweet spots.'
• On the cold air, I was thinking one of those aluminum dryer hoses with clamp might be routed to a cold air source for the air cleaner. The goal is reducing the risk of knock and allowing use of straight fuel without the additives.
• You might look at replacing just the rear tires to keep the costs down. Look for low-rolling resistance and consider a larger diameter tire to add a little more top-end, rear ratio. Every time you can slow the engine and transmission rpm you are gaining a little efficiency. Warning, you may have to recalibrate your speedometer.
• Poor-man's variable cylinder . . . if you have individual injectors per cylinder . . . Changing the head to keep the valves closed it not likely to do much good BUT if you could disable the injector on every other cycle when at cruise and now totally screw-up the ECU, you'd be able to cruise with the throttle more 'wide open' to reduce pumping loss. The heat load will be reduced as the engine would in effect become a 4-cylinder at cruise speed. What I don't know is the 'load' of a 'no gas' cycle on the engine. But I suspect the improved efficiency of the rotating, four power cylinders might give a measurable MPG improvement.
• Cooled exhaust gas? If you can tap the exhaust pipe, as far down as possible, and run a high temperature pipe forward possibly through a 'radiator' to cool it, you could meter it into the engine at cruise speed and improve efficiency. The inert, exhaust gas allows the throttle body to open wider, reducing pumping losses and reduce combustion temperature. If the ECU uses fuel enrichment to keep from burning the valves (a sweet spot boundary,) the cooled exhaust would keep the car in a leaner burn mode at higher power settings.

These all vary in price-performance-risk and it is your car. However, the folks over at www.ecomodder.comwould be good sounding boards.

BTW, I've got the parts and just need to install them in our 2003 Prius to make it E85 compatible. E85 naturally has a very high octane and burns 'cool'. My earlier testing suggests the 1.5L Prius engine has the smarts to adjust to a wide range of fuels so I'm looking forward to this test.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

 

So what is with the fat girl on the right? Did she fart flames?

Bob Wilson

 

If you keep with the octane booster, you'll save a little cash by just using paint/lacquer thinner. Toluene is commonly added to gas to raise octane by the refinery, or more accurately, some is left in after the the reformation process since it is more valuable on its own. Same with xylene. One or the other can be found in the paint section of the home improvement store. More than likely one of them that is the active ingredient in the off the shelf octane booster. The majority of that bottle is filled with kerosene to bulk it up.

Alcohols are also octane boosters. Methanol and ethanol have a lower rating than toluene, but isopropanol is actually a point or two higher. 91% rubbing alcohol is also easy to find. It is hydrophilic but not hygroscopic like ethanol. Meaning it mixes with water but won't absorb moisture out of the air. If you don't want to add the 9% water in the rubbing alcohol, add salt. Isopropanol doesn't mix with salt solutions. The salt dissolves in the water, which no long mixes with the alcohol, and they seperate like oil and, well, water. I personally don't worry about the water when I add a splash of the 91% to the lawn equipment to help with starting and drying out the fuel.

Acetone supposedly has an octane rating of 150, but it can strip the car's paint. It is also hygroscopic like ethanol.

Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia