2002 Don't know who to trust

wow.. tons of problems... but better the way mr wilson wrote it

There comes a time when a car has reached the end of its useful life but this is driven by the owner's requirements:

• payload - a family grows and a small car no longer meets the needs or a new home owner needs to transport house 'stuff.'
• reliability - unplanned repairs impact a fixed budget in a way that is not acceptable
• performance - the existing vehicle performance has been eclipsed by newer vehicles

Only the owner can decide when the car has reached the end of its design life (or an accident takes it away.) You've had a chance to understand what the sedan style, Prius can do, and how well a used Prius has worked out. So you have options:

1. Used NHW11 - what you already have. The model years are 2001-03.
2. Used NHW20 - the next generation 1.5L Prius hatchback has significant improvements over the NHW11. Model years are 2004-09.
3. Used ZVW30 - the current generation 1.8L Prius hatchback further important improvements over the NHW20. Model years are 2010-2011.
4. New ZVW30 - the 2012 Prius has the first upgrades to the ZVW30 and is likely to have fixed a number of small, early problems. Model years 2012-current.
5. New Prius v - the station wagon sized, Prius, with similar EPA mileage rating of the NHW11 but huge increase in payload. Model years 2012-current.
6. New Prius c - the 1.5L Prius with identical payload to the NHW11 but significantly improved performance. Model years 2012-current.

You know your financial position and vehicle requirements . . . I for one will one will not try to second-guess what works best for you. But you have one big advantage, you know the Prius is a real fuel saver and generally works. But your used, NHW11 having reached a decade of service, you have to decide when it is time to become someone else's project car or 'parts.'

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

Read more: http://priuschat.com/threads/reviving-my-2001-prius.113943/#ixzz24zyE3w24

i have p3000 and p3009 and i recently had the battery replaced in reviving my 2001 prius... and i know that it takes a lot in diagnosing the problem... depending on where you are i would look to see an experienced tech in your area... i know NOTHING about PRIUS (except that i like my prius) ... but i know how to read a service manual and pretty handy with tools... i ask a lot of questions here and use the search bar a lot as well...i think you have to make a choice at this time to keep the car or like mr wilson said... become someone else's project car.. dont think you are alone... the techs on this site... are amazing and help with as much as they can... plus just like me... want to see more prius on the road... even my ugly one...
*ever notice that prius owners tend to wave and smile at each other*... weird...

 

I'm willing to try to help you if I can. If you're interested, reply to these.

Does the car still run?
Do you have any codes/warning lights right now?
Have they been reset and if so, do they come right back?

We can get your car fixed if you're patient and stick with it.

 

Sorry to hear about your troubles. This is why I and others tend to advise people to not buy used 1st gens (NHW11). See Going to be looking for a 2001-2003 Prius...Seeking some tips. | PriusChat (ignore tpfun, the banished (?) troll). Patrick Wong's one of our resident repair experts.

 

You might want to read this thread:
P3009 battery Frankenstein project | PriusChat

You might want consider ReInvolt who sells a replacement, refurbished traction battery pack for about $1,700 (a couple of years ago.) It is a heavy part taking two people to swap it safely. However, the newer modules in their pack are much better with stronger terminals. But before spending that kind of money, it makes sense to verify there are no other problems.

The Scangauge II costs about $150 and has the ability to add software, XGAUGE definitions to read out specific diagnostics and even the voltages of the module-pairs in the traction battery. But we can also use it to check the other major Prius systems. It changes "shot gunning" a solution into something more precise.

Let me suggest using the search function and reading up on the P3009 code.

Bob Wilson

 

OWCH! That was probably about $500 for a bad fix!

Which battery, the 12V?

There is a known weakness in the accelerator called the "big hand" syndrome. This symptom is consistent with the car going into a 'safe home' mode. It is awkward and repairable but not a fun experience.

Did he take out the back seat to work on the traction battery? This does not sound right.

If this is the traction battery, I would expect the car not to run at all.

Is the car still running?

Bob Wilson

 

1. How about posting photos of the battery bus bars and the burnt wires.
2. It is possible to purchase replacement bus bars and the voltage sense wire cabling from a Toyota dealer parts department.
3. Can the car be driven in its current condition?

Your story indicates why it is not a wonderful idea to buy an older Prius if you don't have four-digit amounts set aside for significant repairs. It is reasonable to expect that some Prius offered for sale have a problem prompting the sale.

 

Above is an exploded diagram of the HV Battery for your Prius. Can you tell us which cable is partially burnt? Is it # 16? If so, I would start by replacing just that part.

Here is a link to the part #'s and their names along with the price of each. 2002 Toyota Prius Parts - Genuine Toyota Parts
Part 16 is less than $30. I have to warn you about me so you can decide how much attention to pay me. I am very cheap and I always look for the most inexpensive way to accomplish something. I avoid dealers whenever possible. Cheap usually means you have to do the work and, you are likely to make mistakes. Additionally, I am not an expert but, I have been working on cars (and anything mechanical) for over 30 years. I am not afraid to do anything or work on anything. I also have lots of tools so, If I make improper assumptions, forgive me.

With that said, here are my thoughts. I like to start out cheap. You know the harness (whichever one it is) is burnt and definitely needs replaced. It is cheap and fairly easy to replace. Do that first. If that doesn't fix your problem, I would then change the tranny fluid (about $50 to DIY). If that doesn't fix it (there is a low probability that it will), the problem has to be isolated because so many different things can cause this fault (p3009).

More info to consider. If all the cells are of sufficient voltage, your battery may be good (and probably is). Some techs at the dealership are good but they have flow charts they go by to repair things (usually assemblies are replaced). These techs are just simply going by their book (as they're supposed to).

Other questions:
1) How does the car drive?
2) Are there any driveability problems at all (no driveability problems "usually" means the tranny is good)?
3) Does the car still get good fuel economy?
4) Does the battery charge and discharge (use the "Energy" screen to determine this) like it used to b4 u had this problem?

If you haven't already, read this and perform the test indicated in para. 6.
Luscious Garage | Blog | Toyota Hybrids P3009: High Voltage Leak Detected, internal to battery

Hang in there, be patient. Hopefully we can get this fixed on the cheap .

 

A running Prius is much better than the alternative. The next tests are things that do not require an Onboard Diagnostic Bus (OBD) scanner:

• Do you hear a speed related 'rumble' even when coasting in "N" - this is the sound of a shorted, MG2, a powerful motor in the transmission. MG2 has a fixed gear ratio to the wheels and if it develops a short, it will create a 'rumble' whose frequency changes with speed. The only know repairs: (1) replace the old, 45 lb, stator, or (2) replace the transmission from a salvage. Either repair takes "heavy lifting" but we're talking about $1,000-$1,500 depending upon which not-Toyota shop is used. We're talking a couple of months or less before it fails hard.
• Do you hear the traction battery fan running after 10 minutes or so in the first drive - this indicates one or more modules has failed and is overheating the traction battery. Eventually, enough modules will fail and the car won't run. But we're talking up to a couple of months or less. The P3009 and earlier traction battery reports suggests there is a problem.

Now you'll eventually have to decide if you are going to keep or dispose of the car. Having a good OBD scanner allows you to see what the shop sees (or should see) to understand what is going on. At $150, the Scangauge II is what I recommend for folks who want a usable scanner that has XGAUGE capability to read out Prius specific metrics. It can also be used in other cars but the XGAUGE is about as complex as composing a cell phone text message. Just a thought but we can chat about this more later.

Anyway, try the first two tests and let us know what you find.

Thanks,
Bob Wilson

 

OK, if the battery has been reassembled and you don't already have photos, I don't expect you to take the cover off just to get photos.

If the car can be driven and the only problem is that you see warning lights, I suggest that you consider changing the transaxle ATF as previously suggested, as that might help DTC P3009 (which is a high voltage ground fault), if the fault is in the transaxle. However, the ground fault could be caused by any component exposed to high voltage including the traction battery, the traction battery ECU, the high voltage battery cables, the inverter, and the transaxle.

Other than that ATF fluid change, I think you should just drive the car and ignore the warning lights for now, until you start to notice driveabililty symptoms.

DTC P3000 implies a problem with the traction battery ECU but that is likely due to the voltage sense wires being impaired by the burnt wiring.

Once you start to have more severe problems, then it would be time to open up the battery again, replace the burnt wiring, clean corrosion off the battery cells, and reassemble hoping for the best. If that doesn't help then you may need a replacement traction battery at minimum.

Regarding the "big hand" syndrome and lack of acceleration, this is caused by the accelerator pedal sensor which contains a couple of variable resistors. Voltage flowing through those resistors report accelerator pedal depression to the engine ECU. Over time the resistor elements get a bit corroded which causes intermittent operation.

The cure is to replace the pedal sensor. You might obtain short term relief by depressing the pedal over its full travel several times, in an effort to clean the corrosion off.

 

Yes, the transaxle ATF drain and replace is a simple process if you have the correct tools and some prior experience working on cars. You need 5 quarts of Toyota ATF T-IV and ideally should replace the gaskets for the drain and fill plugs. This is available at your Toyota dealer's parts counter.

The front of the car needs to be raised on jackstands.

The transaxle ATF drain plug is on the bottom of the transaxle, within the black transaxle drain pan. There is also another drain plug for the inverter/transaxle coolant located on the transaxle case nearer to the engine, leave that one alone.

The transaxle ATF fill plug is on the side of the transaxle facing the engine radiator. Make sure you can remove the fill plug before you drain the ATF.

You will need a 24 mm socket (or 15/16") to remove the fill plug. Tightening torque is 29 ft.-lb. I sold my Classic a few years ago and have forgotten the socket size needed to remove the drain plug, it might be 19 mm.

If you wish to do a complete job getting rid of debris in the transaxle, you should also remove the transaxle drain pan, clean off the magnet sitting on the bottom of the pan, and wipe the pan bottom to get rid of all of the dirt there. In that case you will also need a transaxle drain pan gasket.

You will need solvent and lots of paper towels to facilitate the drain pan cleaning process. I would use paint thinner or kerosene. Make sure the pan is dry before it is reinstalled and that there is no towel lint caught in the pan.

The bolts securing the drain pan need blue Loctite to be applied on the threads, and the tightening torque is 5-6 ft.-lb. Do not strip the threads in the transaxle case.

After the drain pan is reinstalled and the drain plug is in place, you need to fill the new ATF. The easiest way to do that is to use a funnel with a 3 ft long hose. Place the funnel near the inverter and snake the hose opening down to the fill hole. Then slowly pour the ATF into the funnel. Do this carefully so that you don't end up with ATF all over the inverter and transaxle.

There are several posts about how to do this, but note that the 2G process is a bit different from Classic because 2G uses 4 quarts of Toyota ATF WS and does not have a transaxle drain pan.

 

I still have mine, and it's 24mm (same as the fill plug). The tightening torque is different though: 29 ft-lb is just for the fill plug, use 36 ft-lb for the drain. Both plugs take a gasket part number 90430-18008 (if you keep the car long enough to change the transaxle coolant someday also, that drain plug uses the same gasket part number too).

I liked all of usnavystg's suggestions for battery repair on the cheap. I wouldn't change much, but I would at least mention that some precautions are in order (you mentioned being relatively inexperienced with mechanical work, but didn't indicate your electrical experience). There are two things worth knowing:

• The battery is a stack of modules adding up to about 300 volts (when fully charged) from the first to the last, more than twice the voltage in your house wiring. Electric shock, burns, and fire are all possible if you are not careful.
• The reason parts may corrode is that some of the battery electrolyte may leak out. That stuff is potassium hydroxide, highly alkaline, corrosive not only to metal but also to skin and eyes.

Now, I'm not the sort of person to yell DANGER DANGER SCARY THINGS RUN AWAY!!! Breathe. You can learn to work carefully and safely on this stuff. I just didn't want this thread to fill up with casual instructions about "just pop the battery open and do this and do this..." assuming that you already know.

If you search the forum for threads on the hv battery sealing service campaign, you'll probably find a PDF file of Toyota's full instructions to dealers on how to do that repair. It's a good way to get familiar with the safety precautions they teach their techs to use.

Toyota's instructions might be leaning toward overcautious; for example, in a car that was known not to be in any accident and was not showing any high-voltage leak codes, an experienced tech might be comfortable working in the battery without the electrical gloves, as long as the interlock plug was pulled out and safely in her pocket. With the plug out there's no more than 150 volts between any two points on the battery and if there are no leak codes then you know what points those are. Leak codes (which you have) would suggest being more careful.

"Work slowly and carefully and think before each move" is probably enough advice if you have the electrical understanding to know what to be thinking about. Otherwise, it would probably be good to study the safety steps in the Toyota pdf, and follow them closely. If you'd rather not go gloveless, one place you can buy them online is called Corvib.

Happy hacking,
-Chap