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Is saving energy really helping anything?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by windstrings, Dec 26, 2005.

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  1. JackDodge

    JackDodge Gold Member

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    Or call it Cornucopian Corner
     
    #21 JackDodge, Dec 28, 2005
  2. driveprius

    driveprius New Member

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    Actually, the situations you describe are not free energy! Somebody actually foots the bill. It's analogous to calling the internet free. For the internet governments, utilitities and corporations foot the bill of the electricity and computer upkeep to power the internet. For the tapping into electricity from air you kind of need to be near to a high voltage transmitter like being very close to high voltage power lines. However, once you do this you will wirelessly leach some power off the high voltage power lines. The other big problem is that high voltage transmissions will also transmit power into your body if you're in the same proximity, which is why there can be debates on the long term health effects of living close to high voltage power lines.

    Your first link describes how you can successfully transmit electricity over great distances to light up bulbs as well as fry a mouse in seconds. I am also not too keen on the idea of exploding nuclear bombs overhead to capture the tremendous free electrical energy to save on my fuel bill. Low cost energy is nice but lets keep it safe.
     
    #22 driveprius, Dec 28, 2005
  3. skruse

    skruse Senior Member

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    Daniel thank you for setting things straight. Coriolis effect (tendancy to curve to the right in the Northern Hemisphere, to the left in the Southern Hemisphere) is not noticeable at a small scale (sinks, toilets, showers) but does work at a large scale (ocean and atmospheric currents, rivers). Water swirls in basins because of the design of the basin, not Coriolis effect.

    Our society functions on the work of Tesla (radio, television, alternating current, remote controls). Tesla recognized how to generate, capture and transmit (not store) energy. He just ran short on capital and time to put many of his ideas into use. We will benefit from more critical and analytical thinkers as Nikola Tesla.
     
    #23 skruse, Dec 28, 2005
  4. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    If your thinking about buying oil.. wait a few days till after the 1st of the year....there is a good chance they will sell at the 1st to avoid paying taxes till the end of next year instead of this year, then that would drive the price down and they may turn around and buy those same stocks back for less, and be poised for the drive up as you speak.

    This can be a tricky time of year..... they have already sold thier losers, and now they are presently buying winners.... thats why you may see it temporarily go up till after the 1st... its window dressing... it makes it look like on their portfolio that they own the winners for the end of the year report for the stockholders to see, then shortly after that, they will sell and make thier profit.... as this mass movement of big money causes things to drop and they will buy back in to those winners....

    If I really "knew" I could be rich..... but this is a common occurence this time of year... so be careful.. may not be best to buy long term till after the 1st a few days.
     
    #24 windstrings, Dec 28, 2005
  5. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    Yea.. I know they are thinking about it... near my house the PUD owns some land right underneath thier high voltage powerlines and they pay a farmer to raise sheep and lama's to watch thier health and status.
     
    #25 windstrings, Dec 28, 2005
  6. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    You haven't played in the bath tub too much! :lol: :lol:
    IN any basin, sink, or tub if the water is being pulled out the drain at a high volume, it will spin the water into a tornado type swirling.... in fact thats also what forms tornados, and if you look on the weather station and look at the weather systems dotted all over the northern hemisphere, you will see they swirl counterclockwise... whether in hot or cold climates, they do the same.
    If you go below the equator, then they swirl the opposite direction and go clockwise.

    Even as a fireman, I would witness fire streaming out of bedroom windows etc in a tornado circular motion, and yes you guessed it... counterclockwise!
     
    #26 windstrings, Dec 28, 2005
  7. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    I didn't mention peak oil because it doesn't look like it's happened yet. There's a lot of debate on the subject. The doomsday crowd says it'll happen any minute. The "I'm not listening, lalalalala" crowd (also known as the ostriches) say it won't happen until 2050. There are several issues that govern when this will happen:

    1.) How much more oil can be produced by discovering more oil? It looks like we've hit all of the major fields as well as most of the easy to get at stuff. Probably not much here.

    2.) How much can technology increase what's recoverable. Remember, you can't get all of the oil out of a given field. The oil you can get is known as recoverable oil. In the past that number could have been 30% of the amount actually in the field. With improved technology it's possible to increase this number.

    3.) What are the ACTUAL reservers? This is as much a political question as a geological one. Reservers in the middle east have waxed and waned depending upon the political situation. Back before the countries kicked out all of the foreign national companies those companies usually understated the reservers because they didn't wanna be taxed as much. Once the countries took over they inflated their reserve estimates to get better international loans for building oil production infrastructure and such. These days the reservers are more of less kept a secret for various reasons. It is interesting that the Kuwaitis acknowleged that the Burgan field (2nd largest in the world) peaked recently... about 15-20 ahead of scheudule.

    It's hard to say when we'll hit peak. My guess is it'll happen by 2020, especially if global demand continues to increase. Of course that'll just make the oil shales and tar sands more profitable and that even more disturbing a prospect.
     
    #27 tripp, Dec 28, 2005
  8. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    If the fleet average were 36 MPG we would cut our imports by something like 33%. Compare that to the 4% of ANWAR (assuming the 50% case). If we stepped up biofuel production that'd help even more. As Jack Dodge pointed out, however, it seems unlikely that biofuels are gonna save the day. They can help us slow the rate of oil consumption while reducing our CO2 foot print. The plug-in hybrids would be tremendously helpful and are probably the best bet in the short - mid term.
     
    #28 tripp, Dec 28, 2005
  9. Newman

    Newman New Member

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    Not to put a damper on the discussion, since I do feel a step forward
    lies in alternative energy sources, but ultimately, no matter where
    we look for it in matter, that source will never be the final answer,
    since it will always be relying on a thing bound by limits of either
    quantity, or lifespan. Example: If the whole world was powered by solar
    and wind, we might have a very healthy planet, and perhaps some
    inventions similar to those found in The Martian Chronicles, but we
    would still be dependent upon the Sun and weather patterns. Once
    the sun is gone, so is our energy.

    Humanity is really pushing towards gaining a beginning understanding
    of what Light, wind, etc are, beyond a mere physical basis of understanding
    these concepts and principles. When this happens, we make our own
    movement which is not harnessed to a fixed quantity, size, or form
    in physical properties.

    But humanity is generally stubborn and will resist each stage until
    circumstances force the next one to be taken.....

    For now, we debate alternative energy sources that have been known
    about for centuries...
     
    #29 Newman, Dec 28, 2005
  10. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Remember Jimmy Carter. He may have been incompetent as a leader, but he was the last president ever to tell a truth: WE WASTE MORE ENERGY THAN WE IMPORT!

    To Newman I say, I don't think we need worry about the sun running out. Not in our lifetimes. The human race will evolve back into a slime mold before the sun burns out.

    As for water swirling in basins, sorry Windstrings, as Skruse points out, the coriolis CANNOT affect small bodies of fluid. Water swirls in a basin because it was swirling initially. You can actually determine the direction of swirl by a slight movement of your hand in the water.

    Kenya lies on the equator, and there are places where a sign marks (supposedly) the exact line of the equator for tourists, generally near an outdoor market with shops selling tourist trinkets. Typically there will be a young man (a con artist) with a bucket of water and a big funnel. He will "demonstrate" for you how the water swirls in opposite directions ten paces north or south of this line. (A preposterous proposition!) Of course, he ALWAYS turns his back on you while he gives his funnel a swish to get the water started in the "proper" direction. Then he'll ask you for a tip, to support his "educational" demonstration.
     
    #30 daniel, Dec 28, 2005
  11. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    True you can take your finger and "overpower" the natural effects, but left to nothing it flows counterclockwise.
    One time I took a rag soaked in kerosene and put it inside a round wire tube mounted on a spinning lazy susan. I lit the rag and rotated the wire cage clockwise and the fire would roar upward a bit as the wind caught the flame and propelled it... but If I went in agreement with nature and rotated it counterclockwise instead of a two foot flame, I got a 5 foot flame of swirling fire!

    You'll have to experiement sometimes... I don't know about the effect being directly tied to or related from the coronis, but there is a force... I assume its magnetic and I suspect that force controls both the effects of the coronis and the toilet! :D

    Look at your toilet closer when you flush it... there are not jets forcing the water CCW... it simply falls out and gets sucked downward...after a few seconds it spontaneously starts it CCW motion. Fill you bath tub up about 3 inches and open the drain and watch it drain... or you sink for that matter.

    I don't know about your sink, but all mine are symetrical... meaning they are the same on the right half as they are on the left... there is nothing about the shape to bias them to swirl the water one way or another?... yet when I put about 4 inches of water in it and open the drain... it always swirls CCW?

    Anyway...since I don't really understand the real reason it does this.. I am not qualified to truly debate the issue, but it is an energy and does happen.... its one thing to choose not to believe it, its another to choose not to see it.
     
    #31 windstrings, Dec 28, 2005
  12. Newman

    Newman New Member

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    I recall hearing in grade school that the sun has some amount of millions of years of life left in it, so according to science it is not a concern. But, saying that it is not a concern for us in "our lifetimes" misses my point, the point. I dont think mankind was made to live inside a spacecraft in deepspace, passing from one collapsing solar system to the next. The current course suggests that either we put all our efforts into getting off the planet in some self-contained/self-sustained
    jettison pod (jettison because that would more precisely describe the abandonment of mother earth), or remain on the mothership as it hastens towards its doom, or, reverse the actions set in motion to that end, this being the most logical, but also perhaps the most difficult for stubborn humanity. Thes are of course some of the present options for the physical scientist looking at material cause and effect.

    The point of my post is basically that I think the approaching age is actually
    one of a complete departure from traditional physical-based scienctific methods, and a birthing of a metaphysically-based system for all sciences.
     
    #32 Newman, Dec 28, 2005
  13. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Sorry windstrings. You are mistaken about the toilet, about the magnetic field (which has nothing to do with the coriolis force, and even about the coriolis force itself, which you seem determined to re-name the coronis.)

    One of the disadvantages of intentionally refusing to learn things you don't consider useful, is that you lack the very basic science education which would enable you to understand such things as the coriolis force.
     
    #33 daniel, Dec 29, 2005
  14. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    I have always loved science and made Straight A's!
    I don't know how old you are, but when its been say about 35 years since you learned about the coriolis.. it will be fun to see how well you spell it.... but anyway.... I've already told you I am not qualified to argue this based on facts and I also already told you I don't know if its tied to the coriolis, and I also already told you that I am merely describing a force I witness.... if correcting me on my error about what the cause of it is, or the way I spell things makes you think you can make its existence go away, your still wrong!

    I am merely guessing "as already stated" what the cause it.... I have been submitting Theories", but if we can harness what ever this force is that turns storms, weather systems, and toilet bowls counterclockwise we will have alot of power.
    I have never ever linked this to the coriolis, I only proposed it could be due to magnetic fields which surround all of us all the time.

    There are many things we do not understand because we have never cultured and deveopled research in certain areas. Have you read anything on "Kirlian photography?" you can take a leaf and take a picture and see its whole energy field, tear the leaf in half and take a second picture and still see the whole energy image of the whole leaf even though half of its gone!
    We like to feel smug and think we know so much, but there is a vast realm of unexplored domains.

    If you deny the existence of this phenominum, then our discussion must be over.

    But since you appear to be able to say with confidence that
    I'm assuming you must really know what controls it then?

    So if you do witness and confirm this phenominum, then maybe you can tell us exactly what causes it and impress us all with your knowledge since you appear to enjoy gloating in it?

    I seem to be the only one taking a stab at figuring this out.... all you are doing is shooting down everything I propose?
    Anybody can critique and point out what is wrong, but can you suggest what is right and give some reasonable suggestions of hope as to how to harness such a power?

    Many smart people never do anything great because they know too many reasons it will never work, so the guy who doesn't know any better.... does it!

    Would you like to take a stab at clearing this up and explaining it so everyone can critique your knowledge?
     
    #34 windstrings, Dec 29, 2005
  15. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    I guess I have no takers?....
    ok I dug abit and come up with some interesting articles.

    I decided to let others speak on my behalf..... you can argue with them.

    http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askas...eral/GEN016.HTM
    A piece of the article below:

    http://www.jimloy.com/science/shower.htm
    http://www.badastronomy.com/mad/1996/coriolis.html
    http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2005/2...05-20/feature2/
    http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadCoriolis.html

    While in a swimming pool you can cup your hand and pull it through the water and it will make little twisters... they will all be turning CCW...

    Its common belief that over large distances the coriolis effect is the cause of CCW movement. Even while walking if you throw a paper ball in a trashcan you will see a curvature to its pattern "because your moving".
    The earth too is moving and thats why the trajectory of an antiaircraft missle fire has a curve to its flight.

    But there is much arguement as to what controls this on a smaller scale as in a basin.

    Amid the vast compilation of knowledge we have compiled about nature and technology, there is still much to be learned.

    We must also keep in mind that when a round object is spinning the center moves faster per linear inch than the top and bottom... that alone could be what cause weather systems to turn since the earth moves rotating towards the east. And even why the artillery shell path bends based on whether you aim north veress south.

    Maybe if someone can figure this out they can be famous and learn a powerful key to an alternative energy source.
     
    #35 windstrings, Dec 29, 2005
  16. jeneric

    jeneric New Member

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    Did you read your link:
    http://www.badastronomy.com/mad/1996/coriolis.html

    which says: "But this only works over distances where the spin of the Earth makes a difference when you head north or south. Your bathtub is simply not big enough to make a difference. Random currents in the water completely overwhelm any tiny coriolis effect going on. Imperfections in the drain also have a larger effect. "
     
    #36 jeneric, Dec 29, 2005
  17. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    At the bottom of my last post, you will see that I put in bold that there is disagreement as to whether they are linked... its obviously another force at play they have not labeled yet ... at least that I can find.

    The illustation I spoke of about cupping your hand in a swimming pool and moving it along the surface of the water and watching the little twisters that form behind it... or even a twister in the form of a tornado which is often only a few feet in diameter.
    Its amazing some of the things that are so common like gravity that we have never gotten figured out yet and been able to master.

    BTW.... go rent "chain reaction" if you have never seen it.... its not about this, but its a really good movie on hydrogen manufacturing and harnessing... a Sci-fi...
     
    #37 windstrings, Dec 29, 2005
  18. skruse

    skruse Senior Member

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    There is no Coriolis Effect at the equator, maximum at higher latitudes - all dependent on a rotating planet. Tornadoes, water spouts and tropical cyclones normally conform to the Coriolis Effect, but because of differential heating between oceans and continents, sometimes spin in the opposite directions. Note Coriolis is an "effect" not a "force."

    Make use of global NOAA satellite images where you can see the Southern and Northern Hemispheres at the same time. You often see "parallel" cyclones and anticyclones in opposite hemispheres.

    You can demonstrate Coriolis Effect on a playground merry go round. Misinformation given by the Simpsons and other popular media does not understand Coriolis effect. Yes, a "tornado" forms when water drains from a basin - but direction of turn is based on bowl shape, not Coriolis Effect.
     
    #38 skruse, Dec 29, 2005
  19. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    Everyone used to believe the earth was flat, because that was the best explaination at the time and so everyone accepted it.

    I don't agree about the shape of the bowl... you can drain a swimming pool and get the same effect... the sides of the holding basin does not affect it... its just the only way people can explain it... if thats true, then make it spin the other way with a special shaped bowl?... you would have to have a really exaggerated shape to overthrow the tendency to go CCW. If you drained a whole lake thru a drain it would do the same!
    A bathtub is usually 2.5 feet between walls, yet the little tornado that forms is only about 2 inches?.... how are the walls affecting it?
    I agree that Coriolis is an "effect" not a "force.", but there is a force that is not being labeled here that works in addition to the coriolis.

    When the missle mortar is fired, it cuts a straight hole thru the air, but the ground moves underneath it making it "appear" as if it has turned, but it didnt, the ground moved!

    When fire rolls out the window of a burning house in a CCW direction.... is it the shape of the window causing that too? Its a bit unnerving to know we really know very little about ourselves and our environment.

    We human beings love to feel secure and so we deny the existence of things we don't understand... even though its right under our nose!
    Ever see how people like to hang the first likely suspect when a criminal is at large in a neighborhood?.... they don't care much about the truth, only to sooth their fears that there are things out there they don't have control over and understand... so they "kill" everything they can't understand! We do it with animals in the wild, immigrants from other countries, the government has to deal with fearful heartless human beings to sooth thier fears.... this is why we seldom really know what is going on... we can't handle it! We would rather believe what we "want" to hear.

    One last thought.... if everyone is wanting to give the Coriolis effect the credit for why big storms move CCW, then why aren't all tornados and hurricanes the exact same speed based on the movement of the earth?
    How can they build in power and speed.... some turn very big and slow, other turn very fast and tight?..

    Why can't they admit there are other forces at play?... It amazes me how we accept what everyone else says as fact. We do it in economics, in the media etc...

    Doesn't anyone think for themselves so that they can see the obvious?

    We tend to follow the masses right off the cliff rather than think for ourselves!

    Some people refuse to believe fat meat is greasy! neither will they see it!
     
    #39 windstrings, Dec 29, 2005
  20. jeneric

    jeneric New Member

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    I'm not sure what you're saying here, relative to what? If shot straight up, it will go the same speed as the cannon on the ground and land where it was shot from. It seems like you're saying I could take a hot air balloon up off the ground, where then the earth would spin under me at 1000mph and in 12 hours I could be on the other side of the world. Good luck with that.

    I don't think anyone was denying other forces at play, pretty much the opposite, that only with the large weather patterns is it a noticable effect.
     
    #40 jeneric, Dec 29, 2005
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