First, to some degree I agree with you. I would like some fail-safe mechanisms built in to protect the battery. I think Toyota has done an amazing job with the Prius making it nearly impossible to damage the battery (but even that CAN be done if you know what you're doing). But come on, you sign a contract and initial that specific section. You get a walk-around when you pick up the car telling you not to fully discharge or leave it sitting with a low SOC You have what, 7 different sections in the owner's manual warning you. I, again, go back to my Ferrari example... if you drive in first gear at high speed and blow out the ICE and tranny....should Ferrari have protected the driver from him/herself? At some point (7 warnings and a specific section on the contract) the owner has to take some responsibility.
Based on Evan's post it does look pretty clear, more so that I had been lead to believe. Running out of gas can cause damage, but it only happens a low % of the time and is far less serious that having to replace a Tesla battery pack.
There's actually one more piece of paper you receive that covers the point: (BTW, all these images stolen from teslamotorsclub.com)
Bravo - you got across in a sentence what I was going for and too 3 paragraphs to not quite say. How well do you think the iphone would have done if it had a flaw of a similar magnitude - my daughter might be currently drooling for a Palm Pixi 4 when her contract is up this summer.
Thanks for the rose glasses version, looks like an apt short http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/tsla
Yes, it is covered. The fact that internally they refer to it as bricking is not going to play well. I should have the Autoline Daily podcast in my iTunes queue - I wonder what John McElroy's ( no relation ) take on this will be.
SteveMcelroy said Clearly Tesla has been *very* upfront about the issue. Your criticism is uninformed. As a matter of perspective, I like a manufacturer to give a customer the option of low SOC use for an emergency, and expect the customer to recognize the possible negative consequences. But then I understand the notion of taking responsibility for my actions. E.g., if I bought a LEAF I would appreciate the 90% DoD ability, but would anticipate very rarely (if ever) dropping below 25%.
That was from my post #37 - take a look at my later posts, #'s 42 and 44. The couple of news accounts that I had read stated that the issue had not been clearly outlined by Tesla. Later comments, particularly from Evan show that the problem is documented fairly well, a point that I admitted. It was not uninformed - it came from the original article and then at least one follow up. Here is my original statement- I still think that it is a big enough issue that Tesla should have a statement that says that if the car batteries are not always kept charged the battery pack will completely fail and that the damage will be about $40k and not covered under warranty, but that would have been bad PR, especially for a company with plans of an IPO. I think that they should have been more open and clear, but I do admit that the did mention that severe damage could result in a number of places. I do however disagree that they have been *very* upfront - you can argue upfront, but not *very*. In fact I think that they have been keeping this on the down low. I think that the big issue is that this is not normal with any other sort of consumer product - your iphone does not brick if you let the battery run to zero and your car's engine does not seize up if you are a few hundred miles late on an oil change. As I said before, if this hits the news cycle it will be a real kick in the teeth for all EV's even though it affects only a small niche vehicle that has just about run its production course (assuming that the upcoming Tesla's do not share it).
Sure - the iphone 4 had the whole antenna issue. Apple did not handle it well at the start, then got absolutely hammered in the media and wound up giving away a ton of bumper cases for free. How do you think Apple would handle it if something relatively easy to do bricked the phone - how do you think it would play if Apple told the affected to go pound sand and then leaked negative info about them to the press?
Yep. I remember that one. I was told by my salesman, by my "advocate," and by the owner's manual that you have to plug in the car. Every car requires certain care. Plugging in is part of the care an EV requires. The Roadster is a very expensive, high-performance sports car, and as such requires special care. If you need to drive somewhere where there are no plugs and you would arrive in a low state of charge, then the Roadster is the wrong car for the trip. If you need to store the car, a place without plugs is the wrong place to store it. These are limitations of an EV. If you cannot accept them, you should not buy the car. If you need to park at the airport for several weeks where there are no plugs and you'd arrive there with a low SoC, then the Roadster is the wrong car for the trip. Drive a stinker or take a cab. No, it wouldn't hurt to add some more idiot-proofing. But the fact is that this car is the first of its kind, is very expensive, and serves a niche market. It really requires extreme negligence to do what those 3 or 4 owners (out of 2,500) did. You would not buy a ten thousand dollar tailored Italian suit and then "store" it in a paper bag on the street on a rainy day. Leaving a Tesla Roadster unplugged for weeks at a time is just like that. Those owners had weeks to arrange for their cars to be moved to appropriate storage. This is not a design flaw. It's proof that no matter how well you design something, somebody will find a way to do something wrong.
I hope Tesla's standards are higher than that and they add an extra layer of safety. I expect that they are and a fix will be coming. A $10,000 failure rate of 4/2500 = is gross for a simple owner oversight.
Object lesson in going to the source and not relying on the media for second-hand (at best) information.
I wouldn't call it "simple owner oversight." I'd call it gross negligence. But, yes, they've said the Model S and Model X will be different.
How's this work for ya? I like it myself.. http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/plug-it unnecessary message lengthening since it won't post.
I wonder what Lexus would say if I drained my engine oil, and 'bricked' the car by driving before I refilled. I mean, sure, one little paragraph in the user manual warns that this "may" cause damage, but COME ON. The manual is 400 pages, and not one single person said a word about it at the dealership when I took ownership. If it is that big a deal, Lexus should have required that I be read the riot act and sign I understand before giving me the car. Oh, wait. Tesla did that too. p.s. I also was not told how important the brakes can be.
I figured they would fix it. This reminds me of the Apple iPhone 4 antenna problem, the fanbois insisted it was all the users fault, but Apple did fix it in later models.
A better analogy would be if your parked your Lexus for 2 months with 1/4 tank of gas and when you came back it took $10,000 to repair the damage that caused.
Getting back to this thread (Myself, that is)... I used the topic not as a grandeos or overstating the problem. The article I ran across and linked, was stating this problem adding to the troubles Tesla Motors having. Secondly, the intent was never about FUD... Please take the time to read the rest of what I posted before lambasting me about 'intent'. Ask, don't assume. My only feeling about the situation is the handling of the technology. As I stated, in several posts, no less, is the current uncertainty in general for EV based from the article poking at Tesla and also some of the issues with our current EV technology. Currently, it needs more maturity and also some considerations for situations such as what happening to Tesla cars. Another thing to point out to the long posting of the warning messages. Yes, there are things people are going to be expected to read and sign. However, I beg to differ on the actual trust in people actually reading what they are signing or grasping the basics. In my 20+ years of dealing with computer users, I have agreed with the following statement: Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. - unknown While that was directed towards religious groups, the simple fact is, that a belief people would be 'smart' enough to heed warnings, yet we live in a world that has continuously shown we have repeated mistakes time and time again and not learned from others mistakes. I constantly see people who still ask me the same question about 'changing passwords' in a corporate environment on a 3 month basis, or trying to retrieve a new document they spent hours working on and not saving every 15 minutes. I took tickets at high school football games at the age of 8 years old, watching people 3 to 4 times my age, come up to me, standing next to a sign saying 'Tickets sold at the booth.' and ask me, "Do we buy our tickets here?" Common sense is, sadly, not common. To people who say people would acknowledge the range of an EV car, I have to say I question it, because people will do exactly what you expect them not to do, regardless of how many signs and documents you try and make them read. I still see people who think the proper way to turn off the computer is to hit the power button, and often times, on a computer that is NOT built into the screen, hit the monitor's power button. Lastly as for the 'riot act', sorry... That is the worst analogy made for the simple fact that unless you know exactly what the dealer said to them with the paperwork, they could do the same as what normal dealers will do, "Sign here, that is for you acknowledging we inform you of this..." And you do realize, even for a regular car, taking and transferring/leasing/financing, you are literally going through several signings and it is negotiated or talked about, but you don't go over every line detail to death. Going back to my original feelings, ignoring the whole bricking issue for Tesla... The current view for EV is it is not mature for the standard commuter. The EV cars may not be sustainable until there is sufficient infrastructure to destination as well as origin points for a commuter. This, in my opinion, is going to be the hampering point of pure EV vehicles. The total discharge of a car will also be a problem for term storage due to the lack of point recharging infrastructure with our current battery technology. This, however, does not mean I say EVs suck, as they will be great for corporations, but I fear some people wish to ditch the gas based cars for pure electric may be the 'lowest common denominator', not understanding all the cons and will up the 3-4/2500 to a higher number and paint the problem even more FUD than what I am being accused of doing. The proposed change for the newer Tesla cars would be a step forward, and again, don't forget, there will always be more people who will do the things you don't want them to do for lack of common sense.
Keiichi, with all due respect, I think that you're preaching to the wrong choir. If you really want to understand the current situation with EVs, the LEAF in particular, go over to mynissanleaf.com and see what they're up to. They are not a bunch of beaten down EV loosers. They are living the life, walking the walk, and actively and aggressively exploring the current boundaries and future potentials of the new technology. :rockon: Explorers at the edge of automotive innovation; pioneers for sure. (The LEAF is not an exclusive, high cost, PR gimmick aimed at the fortunate few. It is the closest thing out there right now that suggests what a popularly supported EV of the future might be. Other EVs by Mitsubshi, Ford, Smart, maybe Fiat, etc may establish valid claims to having a long term presence/influence… but that remains to be seen.) Hang around over there, lurk a while. But if you've got any real commitment to understanding as opposed to just making vicarious comments, join up and enter the discussion. I double-dog dare ya. Even though I don't own an EV -- yet -- I'm keenly interested in them. To help ensure that I know what the real EV situation is, I've been a member at mynissanleaf.com since April 2010. Ball's in your court...
