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PRIUS C vs PRIUS PHV - Batteries, can anyone explain ??

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by iFreedom45, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. iFreedom45

    iFreedom45 New Member

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    According to an article at Greencarcongress, the new PRIUS C will be equipped with a new smaller NiMH 6.5Ah battery with a range of 1/2 mile or so they say. (see link to article below)

    The new PRIUS PHV will have a Lithium 4.4Ah battery with a range of 15 miles or so.

    Could anyone explain why the PRIUS C range is so low if it has a larger Ah battery ? Is it because of the chemistry of the battery or is it something else ?

    Thanks for your help,
    Dan

    Green Car Congress: Prius c hybrid goes on sale in US with entry MSRP of $18,950; new transaxle, motor technology
     
  2. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    PiP is 4.4kWh of capacity.

    Ah rating is "how many hours can it sustain a current of 1A at its voltage" or "current-hours" for short.

    Power (Watts) = Voltage x Current
    Capacity (Watt-hours) = Power x "hours it can sustain the power"
    = (Voltage x Current) x hours
    = Voltage x "Current-hours"

    For the c, capacity =144V x 6.5Ah = 936Wh = 0.936kWh
     
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  3. iFreedom45

    iFreedom45 New Member

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    Great, thanks for the quick reply.

    But this does not explain why the PiP that has 4.4kWh and does 15 miles (~25 km) and the PRIUS C with approx. 1.0 kWh does ONLY 1/2 mile range.

    If I understand, the PRIUS C battery capacity is about 1/4 of the PiP battery capacity. So shouldn't the PRIUS C have a range of about 1/4 of the PiP range ?

    ie. 15 miles / .936kWh = 4.70 Miles ??
    The PRIUS C is advertised as 1/2 mile range.
    Thanks for your input,
    Dan
     
  4. V8Cobrakid

    V8Cobrakid Green Handyman

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    bigger battery with less SOC usage?... and an electrical system that helps the smaller engine more equals less usable battery power? with the current prius you can drain it down.. maybe they changed that so it clips out of EV mode before making the car too much of a turtle?...

    think gen1 prius and turtle icons.. it used a similar size engine...
     
  5. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    You're forgetting that both must still have capacity afterward to operate as a hybrid.

    For C, it basically just has a buffer for hybrid operation, with a tiny amount extra to spare. PHV has much, much more extra available.
    .
     
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Sure, lets first look at usable SOC, which is different in lithium versus nimh. After acounting for this

    phv usable soc 2.6kwh
    c usable soc 0.4kwh

    But we want to have some power after ev mode for acceleration lets say

    0.15 kwh, and the prius c isn't likely to be at the top of its state of charge.

    so
    c really has a potential for 0.25kwh for ev, but it must be fully charged for this, since this is not likely the case it is only about 0.5 miles:D
     
  7. iFreedom45

    iFreedom45 New Member

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    Great, this is really what I was looking for !!

    This now makes more sense

    I am still learning.. How did you come up with these figures
    == > phv usable soc 2.6kwh
    == > c usable soc 0.4kwh

    Can I calculate these myself or are these numbers provided by Toyota ? If it is provided by Toyota, can you provide the source for these numbers.

    I am asking because many more PHV and electric cars are coming out and I would like to compare them.

    Thanks,
    Dan
     
  8. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    On the gen II and gen III prius, the battery SOC is managed between 40%-80% giving 0.4x the kwh. I assume it will be the same with the prius c, but toyota's engineers may change it a little bit.

    On the prius phv its an educated guess based on the demo units and some information from the production units. I don't have a firm number right now, but someone else may. Lithium chemistries have a broader SOC that can be used and still provide long battery life.
     
  9. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    Non-PHV cars should NOT use EV mode. The only two reasons to use EV mode: to burn off surface charge from a near fully charged battery at the end of a drive (the last 1/16 of a mile to your driveway), or to avoid turning on the engine for a very short trip. Otherwise, it is the same as recharging your car with a portable gas generator.
     
  10. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I think 2.6kWh is a good guess since it takes 3kWh (from the wall) to charge it. If the charging loss is 10%, 2.7kWh would probably be more accurate.
     
  11. iFreedom45

    iFreedom45 New Member

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    Hi all,

    OK, I believe I found another answer ?

    "The Prius C also uses a smaller, lower voltage hybrid battery pack. Instead of the 201.6-volt, 1.3 kilowatt-hour battery pack found in the 2012 Prius hatchback, the Prius C has a 144-volt, 936 watt-hour battery pack.

    According to Toyota, this should give the Prius C an electric-only range of around 1.3 miles at speeds of under 25 mph, depending on conditions."

    2012 Toyota Prius C Manual Leaked: Here

    So 1.3 miles is just over 2 km, does this make sense ? :(
    Thanks,
    Dan
     
  12. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    The EV miles on Prius c and PHV are not equivalent as the max allowed is 25 vs 62 mph. Slower speed would require less energy per mile.

    What are you trying to find out?
     
  13. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    It depends greatly on conditions, most importantly, the battery state of charge when you start out, and the speed of travel. It is fruitless to compare the C to the PHV, however, as they are like apples and oranges in many ways.

    But I'll say it again, you should NOT plan on using EV mode extensively in a C. It will lead to lower fuel economy. The battery is there primarily to capture braking energy, and give it back for acceleration. In fact, the C is optimized for this in particular, having a smaller (lighter) pack. Secondarily, it starts the Atkinson cycle gas engine, because a conventional 12V starter can't turn it fast enough, and it provides a way to have all the features of a mechanical CVT for optimum power delivery. Any non-fleeting use of EV mode means that the gas engine will have to recharge the battery, which is not efficient. If you want to have true EV mode, buy the PHV.
     
  14. iFreedom45

    iFreedom45 New Member

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    Here is the problem... I sold my PRIUS 2006 this week.

    I was told the "PRIUS C" should be available for purchase in Canada in mid-March 2012 at a price of 20,900$/CDN.

    My Toyota dealer has no idea when the PiP will be available in Canada, my rep told me that it may not be even available at all in Canada in 2012 ?? :(

    My commute to work is 3 km, I bike to work all summer and fall. But I can't bike to work during winter .. way too cold.

    The problem with the my old PRIUS is that it did not even have time to warm up and the ICE was on all the way to work with high MPG.

    I was hoping this would be fixed with th new PRIUS C ??

    Not sure what I should do? wait for the PiP or go for the Prius C. I do not absolutely need a car during summer time, our second car is a Mini Cooper...

    I do 50-75% city driving at speed between 50-70km/h, very short distances most of the time (less than 25km) and I have a garage, so the PiP would be perfect, but it won't be available for purchase here !!! :mad:

    Can anyone provide some insight...

    Will the PiP be available in Canada, if so when ?
    Otherwise, would the Prius C be a good option for me ?

    Thanks,
    Dan
     
  15. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    The Prius c should still be better than the Gen 2 in the cold because it's a lighter car.

    Since car is garaged you can use an engine block heater very effectively to pre-warm the engine.

    You'll also want grille blocking, but for grille blocking on the new car you'll want to wait until the fiddleheads have found the inverter coolant codes and worked out a safe blocking strategy.

    Financially speaking you'd have been better off keeping your old car. (Excluding price fluctuations you're better off keeping an old car unless it's horribly inefficient).

    Anyway, financially speaking you'll be way better off buying a c.
     
  16. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Prius c has exhaust heat recovery system like Gen III. However, Prius PHV has faster warm up.

    I think PHV is better for you but more expensive. Would Leaf work better for you?
     
  17. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Everything is going to have poor fuel economy under those conditions. A block heater, grill block, and maybe even a warm air intake is about all you can do to improve it for any car. All the current models of the Prius do warm up faster than your old 2006, but will still be at their worst under those conditions.

    Depending on how cold it gets and whether you can tough it out without heat or just the seat heaters, a Prius PHV may not be substantially better than the c or regular Prius. At least not enough to cover the price difference, since it will turn on the ICE for heat. If the temperature drops far enough, even a Volt will fire up the ICE. It can use a level 2 charger to precondition the cabin. As of right now, the Prius PHV doesn't preheat.

    What about a BEV like the Leaf or iMiEV? Your commute is short enough that range reduction from cold and heat use won't be an issue. A low speed (25 to 35mph max) neighborhood EV might even work. I'm not familiar with the brands available, but some on the board are.

    The NEV has greater limits than a BEV, but they are cheaper to buy and insure. If you still need something larger and/or with more range, getting a used car, or even a truck/SUV when their prices drop with rising fuel costs, can work out to burning less gas overall compared to the c. Keeping the old Prius would have been ideal, but no use crying over spilt milk.
     
  19. iFreedom45

    iFreedom45 New Member

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    Thanks for the quick reply.

    To make a long story short, I purchased a used PRIUS 2006 back in the fall because my lease was up for renewal and I did not want to comit right away.

    I was able to sell the PRIUS at a good price, and I did not want to take any chances to put too much $$$ on maintenance because the car was high mileage .:plane:

    Anyway, spring is just around the corner and I was hoping to compare PRIUS C and PiP.

    Does anyone know if the PiP is coming to Canada and is so, approx. when will it be available for purchase ? :confused:

    Thanks,
    Dan
     
  20. iFreedom45

    iFreedom45 New Member

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    I was very fortunate to participate in the Nissan LEAF pilot projet here in Montreal. I was able to drive the LEAF one day a week for a few months. The evaluation ended in mid-January 2012.

    For me, the issue with the LEAF is range and the time it takes to recharge (did not have a quick charger at home).

    The advertised 160km range is actually 100km. I got anywhere from 95km to 110km range during cool days. During really cold days (-20C) I only got 85km range.

    The price for a Nissan LEAF is very steep, even when considering the incentives (-8,000$ in Quebec).

    I have not yet looked at the iMiEV.

    Unfortunetely, I would not be able to use the LEAF or iMiEV for long trips (250+ km), recharge time are way too long ... this is a problem for me.

    All in all, I believe the PiP might offer the best of all worlds, but I can't get a date when the PiP will be available to purchase in Canada !!

    Dan