Does GM REALLY want to phase out the Volt?

What's the obsession with modes & clutches? If you reduce the battery-pack by 75% to roughly the same size as the plug-in Prius, you'll still have a beast that weighs about 300 pounds more, is more expensive, is less efficient, and offer less legroom in back and a smaller cargo area.

Sales cannot just drag along a niche quantity for the next few years.

Something must be done to significantly drop cost before the tax-credit expires.
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You are wrong.

Those are the results of having a big battery. The choice of using the engine or not is separate. You can purchase higher quality cells and make a 5kWh pack that runs the volt. Then it would get way better economy and be way lighter (not to mention they could use aluminum still), but those cells cost more. It is cost, cost and cost.

As tested by insideline
Volt = 3,742 lbs
PiP = 3,360 lbs

So it starts out 380lbs heavier is the battery which weighs 435 pounds so drop it to 5kWh and the volt weighs 300 pounds less. Now the difference is 80lbs. Big whoop. If GM wanted they could lighten it up, but that costs money in terms of materials and design. They could also make the aerodynamics better, but they wanted to make it look different than a tear drop.

Call the calvary quick...this is a prius web board though so propaganda and cheerleading should be expected.

 

The use of outdated data is greenwashing, if acknowledgement of the error isn't immediate. Will you?

The production model of PiP is 3,165 pounds. That makes Volt 577 pounds heavier, and still smaller inside.

If Volt isn't competitive enough to allow phase out of traditional vehicles, it will be phased out.
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Your supposition that use of outdated data is greenwashing is pretty foolish. Do you have any idea what people use that term for? It is still only 284 pounds more if you shrink the battery. You said "you'll still have a beast that weighs about 300 pounds more" So now you are off by 5.6% in the weight differential simply from battery. The curb weight insideline reported was 6% off. Are you "greenwashing" or just rounding?

Neither the Volt nor the PiP are competitive enough to allow the phase out of traditional vehicles. Both are far too expensive as it now stands. They are going to sell to people who value something else about them besides lifetime cost savings.

300 pounds in a human is a beast. In a car it is a couple passengers.

 

Couldn't just acknowledge the error, eh? Good example of how the drag comes about.

$29,500 is too expensive?

And all along, it has been Prius leading that effort... not just the plug-in model alone. Notice the variety of HSD vehicles offered?
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We live in reality where there are tradeoffs to be made? Has anyone ever told you that you have an incredible grasp of the obvious?

Uh, because cars are really expensive, and not every "household" has more than one member.

Calvary or Golgotha (English pronunciation: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English"]/ˈɡɒlɡəθə/[/ame]) was the site, outside of ancient [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_in_Christianity"]Jerusalem[/ame]’s early first century walls, at which the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus"]crucifixion of Jesus[/ame] is said to have occurred.

I can't seem to find their number in the phone book.

 

Are you suggesting Volt has cheap low quality cells? Which higher quality cells are referring to? How are you going to throw money in, so the gas does not go stale? Money can't solve all the problem, especially the ultimate result (sales).

Perplexing. You spend more money on expensive (non-existence) battery and use exotic materials to save weight to make up for the gas engine dead weight? Why not just let the thing combust?

 

If the volt had a 5.2kWh pack it would have to burn gas regularly anyway b/c most people take trips in excess of the range that would provide on a regular basis (within 6months anyway). Yes the Volt definitely has cheap cells. Otherwise it would cost bucketloads more. (sry to Pinto that auto spell check is upset about bucketloads). Low quality is a term you have chosen because you are upset that you feel someone is denigrating your chosen car. I really should probably avoid posting here since people are so ridiculous about their love for a company and car instead of just their interest in technology. I said they could use higher quality cells. There are definitely higher quality cells out there. There are cells that can do 40C without it being a problem. That would be 208kW from a 5.2kWh pack. Unfortunately these cells probably cost 6.4x as much per kWh. That is a rough guess because no one wants to admit how much they are actually paying for cells.

Well I suppose you tried, though you could just say it instead of being passive aggressive . I thought you had a pretty incredible grasp of the obvious in your post if that makes you feel any better.

What are you saying? Look up the number of cars owned per household in the US which I assume is what we are talking about.

Thanks for pointing out the spelling error though. I love the spelling police of which you are now an honorary member.
[IMGLINK]https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ni7ITgaZckE/TyVLa-YsP_I/AAAAAAAAAow/mYj4jdvNapc/s800/15320283_400x400.jpg[/IMGLINK]

I am happy to acknowledge insideline's error and my error in using them. I don't know why that excites you though. I did enjoy that you made an error of similar magnitude and ignored it.

 

Thank you. That's all I needed.

You don't know because you haven't dealt with INTENTIONAL misleading yet, when people go out of their way to use outdated information. We saw that on a very regular basis in the past. Now when it happens, it's necessary to address it immediately... especially with so many varieties all carrying the name of Prius now.

As for magnitude, I'm not sure how 5.6% applies with admitted rounding. I did say "about 300 pounds". Also, don't forget that the overhead that comes with the battery-pack, which cannot be reduced at the same proportion. There's packaging and support components too.
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What is the basis for that statement?
Presume full acceleration for 0-60, which is about 9 seconds. The Volt traction motor is 111kw, tossing in some inefficients say that is a current draw 120kw. Then that consumes .29kWr, or about 2.3% of a full charge, so it takes about 12min of recharge at 120v and 6min at 240v.


Can you estimate the amount of gas used for a cold start of an Prius engine for 0-60? (Please include the gas used to replenish the battery discharge that was used as well)


The Volt 0-60 is nearly a second faster (i.e. better merging onto highway) than the Prius, so energy comparisons are tricky. Don't know how to estimate the energy used if the Volt was a slow as the Prius.

Can you explain what you mean. Both are using epicyclic gearing and both have one output and the remaining elements connected to drive motors. Please explain why one is more efficient (in terms of mechanical transfer/loss).

 

Related question.. can you explain why EPA gives a Prius a "9" rating for smog emissions in CA, but only a "7" in Colorado? (Where is not SULEV, just Bin 3)

 

Would elevation have an effect on the emissions?

 

And don't forget the unburned hydrocarbons and other pollutants spewing out the tailpipe as the cold gas engine is called upon to suddenly rev up under high load. The normal assumption is that the Prius engine can do a cold start under low load conditions that are mostly covered by the electric motor but that won't apply to a PiP (which doesn't cold start at the beginning of the trip like a non-plug Prius) if it is suddenly called upon to aggressively accelerate up the kind of highway onramp that would take the 1.0-0.65 kWh implied by usbseawolf2000's scenario.

 

And Minnesota, Alabama, etc., etc.

 

Use F=ma. Just assume constant acceleration see how much slower the prius is and how much less energy it would take in that case.


BTW on the EPA bit it may (I am just guessing) have to do with which emissions are the driving force in smog production in an area. So NOx and SOx and ozone and all that might have different limiting factors in different geographic locations so that a pollutant is worse in one location (as SO2 is far worse in the northeast since they already emit a lot of it).

 

You have to remember the motor would decrease in size as well . But honestly 300 lbs is no big deal in a car. I get tired of a very large bias against the volt drive train. The drive train and design there of is actually quite good. The vehicle itself doesn't excite me. The interior is yucky, but then I don't think the Prius interior is anything special either. You pointed out what I perceive as the far greater flaws already. The interior space, rear seat issue is far worse. BTW I just saw a volt driving around today (so that is 2 for me so far).

I wish Toyota made the Prius V the PiP instead personally, but I am sure these companies did some research that determined their course. They are after all both business who seek to make money not be our friends. I have no doubt the PiP will do better than the volt, it is cheaper, and it has name recognition. Toyota's efforts to make other hybrids haven't sold that well either compared to the Prius. Honestly that is why they made the decision to make the Prius a sub brand of a bunch of different vehicles. Just like Intel kept the Pentium name around a long time. I want more space in my vehicle b/c my family is growing. But I would still like to have a fuel efficient option.

 

Production Plug-in Prius has a electrical heated catalytic section, AFAIK.

Pointing pollution problems for the most clean vehicle in the world eh?

 

I'm pretty sure the Prius does not electrically heat the catalytic converter.

Usbseawold2000 posed an exaggerated highway onramp accelerarion scenario in an attempt to make the Volt look bad. I'm just pointing out the implications of the same scenario for the PiP.

 

I'm trying not to let my morals get in the way of doing what's right.

 

I'm suprised we have gotten to this level of detail Does that mean the volt critics think that gm isn't going to phase it out.

The prius does not electrically heat the catalytic converter, but this is done in some other cars, I believe bmw was the first.

The gen III prius added cooled egr, which while not increasing peak engine efficiency, it increase efficiency and reduces pollution at higher power levels. A byproduct of this system, is the exhaust heat which is utalized in an exhaust heat recirculation system that warms up the engine faster during starts. The combination of technologies increases efficiency while reducing pollution at the same time. The down side is additional complexity and cost. These costs are not high though, and I doubt reliability is sacrificed. Cooled egr is old technology that has been proven in turbo diesel applications. These paired tech, cooled egr and ehr are not used on the volt. The larger efficiency tech not used in the volt engine is late intake valve closing. The combination is responsible for the bulk of the difference in drive train efficiency between the cars in charge sustain mode.

Certainly even with ehr, cold starts during acceleration in the prius phv will increase polution. This needs to be measured against the low pollution the car puts out though, and I don't think we should hold this against the car. CARB should change its rules to give phevs for their non gasoline miles instead of simply measuring these start up pollutant levels. Proposals for this are on the table for the next set of emissions standards.