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Prius dies in parking lot twice with same issue

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by gordonr, Jan 8, 2012.

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  1. gordonr

    gordonr Member

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    I'm posting this problem for my sister with a 2010 who lives in Chandler, AZ...

    About 3 weeks ago she leaves work (in Queen Creek) and finds her Prius dead in the parking lot. Can't open the car with SKS or wireless remote. Gets towed to the nearest Toyota dealer (Big Two Toyota of Chandler). At the dealer the car acted normally. Nevertheless they declare the 12V battery was bad & replaced it.

    Several days ago it happened again. This time she still couldn't open the car via SKS, but was able to open the door with the manual key (previously she didn't even know there was a manual key), but the car wouldn't start via SKS or the emergency key recognition technique. This time she noticed the lights inside the car went on as expected meaning the 12V battery was working. The car gets towed to the same dealer again, and this time it failed to start at the dealer as well. They ran diagnostics and said the high voltage battery wasn't tightened down and they fix, reset the car and declare it OK.

    I've never looked at the schematics for the Prius electrical systems but think their diagnosis is a bit suspicious. I'm guessing the computer that authenticates SKS door opening and car start requests runs off the 12V battery. In my mind the behavior suggests an intermittent fault with the computer running the SKS system or maybe even some issue with her remote fob. Any suggestions welcome. Does anyone know of a highly skilled dealer in that area in case this happens again?
     
    #1 gordonr, Jan 8, 2012
  2. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    The SKS system runs from the 12V battery. Did she try starting without the SKS, that is by holding the fob up to the power button? She doesn't need SKS to start, so if it happens again make sure she tries that trick to eliminate or implicate SKS.

    Tom
     
    #2 qbee42, Jan 8, 2012
  3. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    The first visit definitely sounds like 12V battery, even though it started when it got there. It is possible that the second visit was the result of the 12V not being installed correctly. A loose connection at any of the three points (posts, ground wire) can cause charging problems. Explanations like that often get lost in translation between the technician and service writer. A loose connection with the hybrid battery simply doesn't fly. Any source of extra resistance will cause fried components, due to the high current involved.

    I've seen recommendations here for Camelback Toyota.
     
    #3 seilerts, Jan 8, 2012
  4. gordonr

    gordonr Member

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    The second time she did try to start it by holding the fob up to the power button. Still no go. I assume in both instances the dealer did that as well.

    Although inconvenient for my brother-in-law, I'm going to suggest she hang onto both keys for a while just in case one of the fobs is flaky.
     
    #4 gordonr, Jan 8, 2012
  5. phoenixgreg

    phoenixgreg Senior member

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    Since the fob's batteries (both) are possibly 2 or more years old now, maybe they need replacing as well.
     
    #5 phoenixgreg, Jan 8, 2012
  6. Rebound

    Rebound Senior Member

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    Perhaps, but the Prius key has a fail safe that will work even if the key fob battery is dead, and the car didn't start when she tried it.
     
    #6 Rebound, Jan 8, 2012
  7. phoenixgreg

    phoenixgreg Senior member

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    The OP didn't mention if his brother-in-law's fob worked OK or not. BTW OP: I've had very good luck with Camelback Toyota if you feel Big 2 isn't giving you straight answers.
     
    #7 phoenixgreg, Jan 8, 2012
  8. gordonr

    gordonr Member

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    Thanks for the dealer referral. I'll let her know. I've recommended that she have it towed to a different dealer if it happens again. If I remember the car was an end of year 2010 purchase, so it's probably only about a year old. She never tried it with the 2nd fob as it was with my brother-in-law, and the car got towed before she could try it. In the interest of debugging, it's worth her while to try both fobs if it happens again. Does anyone know if the on-board computer logs failed attempts to start or attempt entry to the car with the wrong fob (or in this case a possible faulty fob or faulty SKS comptuer)? I know in our 2G Prii the interior lights turn on even if you have a fob for a different car. Logging failed attempts is certainly possible and is a common security feature where timeouts are added to slow down people trying to discover pin codes through brute force attacks. If it does, and the log didn't show anything that would be telling.

    I don't know the exact model she has, but it's one of the higher end ones which has the solar exhaust fan option. I assume the solar fan doesn't draw anything from the 12V battery, but just adding this info in case there is some connection which could cause a problem.


    FWIW - she still loves her Prius and finds it worlds better than the Honda Civic hybrid it replaced.
     
    #8 gordonr, Jan 8, 2012
  9. duffasaurus

    duffasaurus Senior Member

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    I'm still questioning the Fob. Even the second Fob being 2 years old, could be suspect. I would replace the Fob battery to be sure. A simple way to eliminate the Fob as an issue here! IMHO.
     
    #9 duffasaurus, Jan 8, 2012
  10. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    Advise her or an on-site friend to get a voltmeter and measure the voltage on the jump point under the hood with the headlights on but the car OFF. If it's less than 12.0V the battery is toast.
     
    #10 richard schumacher, Jan 8, 2012
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  11. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    #11 seilerts, Jan 8, 2012
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  12. gordonr

    gordonr Member

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    The car is only about 1 year old, but even so I'll advise she change the batteries in both fobs.

    Thanks for the info, and if I lived nearby I'd be there in a flash to help her, but don't see her doing this herself. Maybe she could find someone to help her - will suggest this as well. Could some parasitic load or short drain the battery to a point where interior lights go on, but the SKS computer won't operate? Some electronics can be very voltage sensitive.

    BTW - remember one other detail of the story. Attempts to jump start the car also failed.
     
    #12 gordonr, Jan 8, 2012
  13. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    It doesn't do much good. When in Ready, the 12V system is powered by the DC to DC inverter, so you won't be able to tell anything about your 12V battery (unless it is shorted, in which case you won't be in Ready). When powered down the "cigarette lighter" socket is turned off, so you still won't know anything about the state of your battery. I suppose you could power up in Accessory mode and get a reading, but that is only marginally useful due to the accessory loads.

    Spend the money on a volt meter instead.

    Tom
     
    #13 qbee42, Jan 8, 2012
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  14. gordonr

    gordonr Member

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    I have a DVM and more (oscilloscope & logic analyzer), but live across the country. Is there a good, inexpensive DVM you'd recommend or will your standard entry level Home Depot/Lowes/Radio Shack stuff work OK? Is the 2nd accessory outlet hidden by the center armrest also off when powered down?
     
    #14 gordonr, Jan 8, 2012
  15. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    For a simple battery voltage check any little DVM should work fine. It can be informative to check the battery voltage at the battery as well as the jump points under the hood. There shouldn't be much difference if the battery connections are good.

    As far as I know, both accessory outlets disconnect when the vehicle is powered down. I don't have a Gen III, so I am repeating what I recall hearing before.

    Tom
     
    #15 qbee42, Jan 8, 2012
  16. seilerts

    seilerts Battery Curmudgeon

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    I disagree strenuously. It shows system voltage in ACC and Ig-On. It also turns on fast enough to show battery sag if going directly from off to ready. If you like to sit and listen to the radio in ACC like I do, then it is possible to keep an eye on the 12V soc.

    Many people don't know how to make a voltmeter work, but just about everyone knows how to plug something into a cigarette lighter.
     
    #16 seilerts, Jan 9, 2012
  17. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    Are there any aftermarket electronics installed?

    Does she lock the car every time she leaves it? Does she like to sit and listen to the radio with the car in ACC mode rather than ON/Ready?
     
    #17 richard schumacher, Jan 9, 2012
  18. gordonr

    gordonr Member

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    Car is always locked & doesn't use ACC mode. Nothing aftermarket installed.
     
    #18 gordonr, Jan 9, 2012
  19. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Fair enough. I never run my Prius in Acc. I'd rather not put the strain on the small 12V battery, so I don't need to constantly monitor the voltage in that mode. If I need a quick battery test in that mode I use the one built into the Prius.

    Tom
     
    #19 qbee42, Jan 9, 2012
  20. stevelesak

    stevelesak New Member

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    My 2010 Prius IV has done this to me twice now. Just flat wouldn't start. In both cases the car had been driven within an hour or two of the malfunction. I got this strange message "P Lock malfunction when parking. Park in a flat place and apply parking brake securely.

    There was a buzzing sound in the engine compartment until I attached the jumper cables. The first time I started the car with the jumper cables and removed them. The second time I attached the jumper cables and the buzzing stopped. I removed the jumper cables and the car would not start until the cables were reattached.

    The dealer in Tuscaloosa, AL could find nothing wrong, no codes, no bad battery, nothing. The car is at the dealer in St. Pete, FL right now. Once again, no codes, etc.

    Any ideas/
     
    #20 stevelesak, Jan 9, 2012
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