A new article from CNN Money today. Interesting reading. http://money.cnn.com/2004/01/06/pf/autos/d...brids/index.htm Jeff
I have a feeling once they see the sales figures for the Lexus RX hybrid, they'll sing a different tune. They're also just jealous because they can't figure out how to make a hybrid engine without selling at a loss. No offense to American engineers, but the Japanese have us pegged as far as engine engineering. The Big 3 still insist that the Prius sells at a loss of $5,000 per car.
It's an interesting article. They're still spewing the stuff about how the Prius and similar can't be profitable--seem to be in denial. There are about 3 seperate 'concessions' that Toyota's kicking their asses with the Prius while using double speak to defend themselves. He can't seem to make the connection that there is more to the equasion for a lot of people than whether the improved fuel efficiency can compensate for the higher price. I long ago accepted that I could, if I wanted, get a cheaper car that's nearly as fuel efficient. He can't seem to see that it doesn't all boil down to dollars and cents. If it did then no one would drive luxury cars either--they make no sense in a dollars and cents way either. He's right that Toyota will have to buff their profit margins with hybrid trucks and SUVs....but so what? He doesn't get it that real people care about the environment, they car about improved technology, they care about not burning fossil fuels. It's a 'big picture' issue and all he seems to want to look at is the bottom line. Just plain short sighted--or intentionally wearing blinders. --evan
I contend that the universal appeal of the Prius is not in it's environmental friendliness. Instead, it's appeal lies in the fact that you get so much for so little, and you are offered things that you would normally have to buy at least a $30k+ car to get. Sure, environmental friendliness is great, but for many it's simply icing on the cake. The average consumer will say to his friend, come look at my Smart Entry system or my Navigation system with Bluetooth capability and voice recognition - Not, "Hey, come look at my tailpipes - don't see the emissions, do you??" People love toys and little extras - expecially when they're cheap and in a car that is very comparable to one they were probably also looking at buying - the Camry.
To be honest, Toyota may not really be making a profit on each Prius as they report. There are many ways to skin a fiscal cat. The massive research and development of the Prius (don't forget, Toyota literally did every piece of development and makes every component in house to better control both quality and the resulting patents) isn't necessarily factored into to the profit calculation. This is very complicated accounting with no control on Toyota or incentive on their part to say "hey we lose on every one" but are planning for future sales of the Hybrid Technology.
I expect within the next 6 months GM will announce an agreement with Toyota similar to the one announced by Nissan - that they will be purchasing Toyota HSD systems to put in their vehicles. GM missed a BIG boat here, and in the next 10 years it will cost them the title of world's largest car company. It is sad to say, but American car companies are just not cutting it anymore, and I doubt if Chrysler will survive intact and Ford will be much less than it is now. You can blame it on any number of factors, but lack of drive-train innovation will be the killer. Fancy tech 'gadgets' like DVD navigation and digital displays and cool cup holders do NOT make a car more efficient or significantly better to drive. It's what drives the whole vehicle that determines it's level of technology - the heart is under the hood! GM , Ford, and Chrysler are just now trying to wow consumers with variable valve timing - something Toyota and Honda perfected 5 years ago. The taste of dust will be in the mouths of American car executives for a LONG time to come.
The reality is that the domestics are too focused on the profit of serial number 0000001 as it rolls off the lot. Toyota freely admitted that they were selling the first Prius at a loss. It took them untill late 2003 to recoup the R&D and turn a profit. The domestics simply won't stand for that kind of long term investment. That CEO absolutely cannot live without that 50 billion dollar bonus every year. Untill their core values change at the top, they will continue to slowly die - and they will deserve the deaths that they are headed for.
Well Designed Gasoline Hybrids better in the short term I posted this on the YG back in November, but it did not stir any discussion. But it seems to fit in here. There was a little article in the December issue of Discover Magazine. It was just a little sidebar that talked about the environmental impact of automobiles and their entire footprint (manufacturing/use/consumption). The little graph is reproduced poorly on the website, but if someone is really interested, I'll scan it. Basically, the article said, "A near-future fuel-cell car would not be much cleaner than a well-designed battery-gasoline hybrid." because "although fuel-cell vehicles would produce zero greenhouse-gas emissions during use, the extraction and refinement of hydrogen fuel would release three to five times as much carbon into the air as is released in procuring and refining gasoline and diesel." http://www.discover.com/issues/dec-03/rd/d...ogen-fuel-cell/ I had often wondered about the ecological impact of the creation of the hydrogen for this "hydrogen future." I'm curious to see the entire study as well.
Even more news about the coming "hydrogen economy" From The Village Voice Cleaning Up: Bush's Pals, an Oligarch, and a Siberian Pollution Factory Hydrogen's Dirty Details by Mark Baard January 6th, 2004 9:30 AM The so-called hydrogen economy will be a boon for the mining industry. The clean-energy future that many environmentalists have dreamed of has been turned over to the coal industry and a notoriously dirty Siberian mining company run by Russian oligarch Vladimir Potanin. A deal personally smoothed over by Bush has given Norilsk Nickel, one of the world's worst polluters, a toehold on American soil—and a major stake in the hydrogen economy. ... more
Wow....what a one sided article. The goal of this article seems to be to see if we can pit the people of America against one another. First lets denounce the free market in which we live, then lets spout nonsense about how great solar and wind power are, and then lets try to make anyone who is a miner look bad. Here is a quote near the end of the article. Hmmmm......maybe they should be looking at the environmental damage that the wind power plants produce to the birds that die by the hundreds. I wonder how many birds would die from the solar energy plants? I mean if they are using the dead birds for something, then OK, but I don't think they are. We have to face trade offs for any power source, but right now it looks like hybrid battery/ICE systems are the least damaging to the environment. Hydrogen is just to costly to produce, and there is no infrastructure for delivery. I would love for others who are not as ignorant as I am in this area to please fill me in on where I am missing the boat. I want a clean environment just like everyone else, but I just don't get how it can hapen with Hydrogen. Maybe John1701 has some insight. I missed the boat on the Bush administration being so Hydrogen proactive, but he filled me in on the history that I missed, so I would love it if others who know more would do the same on this so we can all understand. Thanks. Atoyot PS - I guess I should get the title as most ignorant :mrgreen:
Windmills are now designed to be bird-friendly, with lower rotation rates and they actually produce 2 times the usable power of older models that killed birds. Learned this in a newspaper article here, since a wind farm is under consideration for an area on the ridge above Lake Erie. Hydrogen is not going to happen any time soon. It is basically a ploy to get government funding for someone's pals with no real hope of becoming reality. I personally believe that bio fuels will be the next best hope to reduce oil dependance. Ethanol can be produced and the 'waste' of the process used as animal feed. This is a true renewable resource...there are thousands of unused acres of arable land that could be converted to corn, soybeans, sugar beets, hybrid poplars, and any number of good ethanol producing plants. Yes, the cost will be higher than oil, but we won't run out or be held hostage by foreign suppliers. A Prius running on ethanol would be about as earth-friendly as it gets. Plus, family farmers could get in on this one with profitable crops and a steady market. We do need to rely on renewable resources for a sustainable future. Well, time to jump off the soapbox, but right now, we Prius owners are doing the best of all in trying to make things better!
Absolutely not! In my opinion, someone who knows what they don't know, isn't ignorant. That's the trickiest part of enlightenment. I'll admit I really don't know what the future will hold, but in the mean time I'm going to pick a positive direction and hope that I'll at least do less damage that way. The biggest contribution we can make with regards to the environment is to REDUCE our consumption (on top of getting the most fuel efficient vehicle available) - it means living closer to where we work or telecommuting where possible, combining trips and errands, ridesharing and just thinking planning every once in a while. But back to the original topic, I hope that the Prius and the other hybrids that Toyota is developing (and hey, those from Honda too) will push good old fashioned capitalistic competition to develop better products. It's funny, my neighbor complimented me on the car this morning and said that she'd love to get one in a few years when her SUV needs to be replaced, but her husband insists on buying American. I told her than many Toyota's are made in North America and there's no reason to think that they won't try to start building them here in a few years. And I pointed out that it will reduce all that "imported oil."
Just read a 2 page article about hybrids in the Sunday Parade Magazine that comes in lots of local papers. The word is really getting out! Do the people at GM read these things? I think that the general public is starting to understand the definite advantages and lack of problems regarding hybrid vehicles and the flood gates of demand are about to be fully opened. Articles like this will put hybrid technology into the mainstream.
> Just read a 2 page article about hybrids in the Sunday Parade Magazine that comes in lots of local papers. Did ya like the closing 2 paragraphs? That's me!
Jerry, GM's problem isn't that the market isn't accepting them. Their problem is that they are not willing to pursue the nearly two model cycle timeframe that Toyota was willing to in order to turn a profit. What they state "on the record" is only PR doublespeak. GM has looked into hybrids. Their sole complaint is their inability to turn a profit on the first model year. My guess is that they aren't willing to spend the bucks when they cannot even bribe the public into buying their products with fat rebates and free interest loans.
For those of us who don't get papers, is there an online version? I'd love to see John's words in a major print article!
Hey John. good stuff on the Prius! You are becoming the hybrid guru in the national media now, riding to stardom along with the Prius. You've earned it with all the info you have provided to help out the rest of us. Thanks! I can't find the article online though.
It looks like you can only get in online the week *after* it's published, and then you only get an abstract, and have to pay for the whole article... http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/parade/search.html The main site is www.parade.com Sandpiper
Toyota certainly has the long term in mind. Develop the technology, then put it in everything you sell improving it along the way. Recover your costs many times over. You can do the "recover the development costs in 1 year" plan, but sales will be down because the buying public won't see value. I think a lot of people see the '04 Prius as exciting new technology at a reasonable price that also includes the features they would want in any car. If Toyota had charged $30K for them, I doubt they would have made the big splash. The Big 3 are scrambling to figure out how to stop people from buying this new technology not because they think it is bad but because they don't have it, won't have it any time soon and are going to lose big.
