I am surprised as well. For years I have seen PC members battle against illogical arguments. I very much appreciate your efforts Daniel. And also very much agree with you that the Volt is a mediocre car in general. And for your driving needs, absolutely horrendous (thank you for sharing the details of your needs in a car, that helped me see just how bad a Volt would be for you).
I am not fan of the Volt. (although most of my issues are really with GM) I cannot imagine why anyone would oppose someone else buying a Volt and trying to feed it solar electricity. (I wonder how these folks are powering their PCs?) Is it a right solution? Yes. Is it THE right solution? I am too frustrated with GM to be objective. Don't let the bastards wear you down.
That is because some of the people are Toyota FanBoys - and hate anything GM. They might also be trying to defend their ownership of Prius to themselfs by trashing Volt. We see similar anti-EV or anti-Prius sentiments in gm-volt for eg.
ok... so the Volt works for a few...that have money...to buy the car and install solar panels. The Prius plug-in is kinda expensive for the masses...but less than the Volt...in base form... The non-plug-in Prius is proven and a bit more attainable by the masses...but is gas-only... Let's hope the Volt comes down in price...as do solar panels... I don't know, maybe, just maybe, the Volt can compete...even considering the head start by the Prius...I for one would be leaning to a Prius plug-in (cost, use, proven...to mention the top 3). Overwhelmingly, thank u to all the GM Volt buyers giving it a chance. I have doubts...just as I had a few doubts 7 years ago when I jumped (leaped, really) into the hybrid world. so far so great. YMMV.
This is a transitional time for automobile design and energy cost/usage. Implementing alternative solutions is in itself a positive. Arguing about them, not so much.
Actually my PV's will be saving me money from day 1 with no upfront costs. We used a company called sungevity, technically they own the system on our roof and we lease it from them. As owners they get the tax credits and transferable generations credits or whatever, and we get all the power produced by the system, if it makes more than we need we get credit for selling it back to the grid. As owners they are responsible for all installation, repairs, and maintenance. All we have is the financing payment on the lease which is around 80% of our old electric bill, so we'll be saving money the very first month, and our energy costs are pretty much stable now for the next 15 years.
Let's not forget the tens of millions of people who live in areas that already have low-carbon grid power even without putting up their own solar panels. That includes 40+ million people in California, Idaho, and coastal Oregon and Washington state. And then there are tens of millions more in major parts of Canada and a bunch of other areas across the U.S., and Europe, etc. And where the standard grid power is not so great or even nearly 100% coal there are still sometimes "green power" optional plans that charge extra and direct your money into building up wind, solar, and other renewable sources. In these areas, driving electric vehicles of almost any kind and price will reduce the emission of CO2 further than even a Prius can today. More choices will be available soon. The Leaf is here today and is an excellent deal if it works for your driving needs. The PiP will fit better for others. My Volt works perfectly for me. If you can't afford something new, consider a used Leaf, PiP or Volt in 3 years after someone else's lease expires. And if you can put up solar panels then more power to you! If a non-plug Prius still works best for you then don't worry. Be happy. I ordered my first Prius in the Spring of 2000 when they were only available in Japan and I could only read about them online. I still own and drive it occasionally. The Prius powertrain design is still the best option for many drivers.
I'd include inland Oregon and Washington too, which use mostly the same power as their neighbors to the west (Coastal OR & WA), east (Idaho), and north (BC Hydro). In fact, this year they could have being using the wind power that was being thrown away because of lack of transmission capacity to pipe all the surplus hydro to the coast or to CA.
Zythryn, You are putting 10 kWh into the grid during daylight (in a sunny day) and help 'shaving the peak'. This is commendable and worth a bonus (I wish I could do it but I don't have a private roof). You are charging your Volt at night drawing 10 kWh and help 'shaving the (low) peak', again, this worth a bonus. I can see how, by doing these, you contribute to delay in installing new coal plants. I fail to see how, by doing these, you are burning less coal (well, maybe marginally by improving power plant efficiency a tiny bit), compared to an alternative scenario bought up by usbseawolf of keeping the Prius and installing PV panels. But I guess the other scenario was not an alternative for you (as you said - no Volt, no PV). My posts were referring to the "reducing your carbon footprint" issue. On this issue only, driving a Volt - even in your driving habits as I understand - will not reduce total GHG emissions compared to your previous Prius (or a new one). Not until your local grid becomes much cleaner. But again, no Volt - no PV panels kills this argument as well. Daniel, in his posts confusingly mixed between pollution and emission. The local (tailpipe) average pollution with your volt is less than the Prius (although improvement is desired in CS mode).
Agree, and would like to add: The break-even-point for an average Volt driver (67% EV according to GM) - as compared to Gen3 Prius - is a local grid of about 500 gCO2/kWh total emissions (including fuels upstream emission). Coal plant total emission is around 1000 gCO2/kWh.
This peak vs. non-peak debate hasn't been completely accurate, because it is only referring to "burning less coal." What I have seen, at least with my local utility, is that they have several "peak generators" that run on diesel. So IF there is a situation where the power company is running up against maximum ordinary generation capacity and will have to run their "peak generators," it will be much less efficient than any coal generator. Also, in general, I don't think this scenario will occur very often, I'll have to go back and see what % of generation was from their "peak generators" here in Florida. In addition, my utility company also has "peak" and "off-peak" fuel charges, so by running off-peak you are using the fuel (coal or natural gas) more efficiently than during the day. Otherwise the electric company would not have a cost differential for that portion, where they are required to only charge the customer their actual costs.
It's why this thread was created. If you wade through that monster success/failure thread, you'll find the old anti-EV arguments being used. I don't care for GM, and paid zero attention to the Volt marketing as it was developed. It's a niche vehicle that does reduce gas usage for the people that fall in the niche. I welcome it because of that, and more choices is better for everyone. Others here, whether because of GM's past actions or Toyota fans, can't give the car a fair assessment.
How so? The PV panels will balance out any additional carbon sourced electricity produced by charging the vehicles. Unless he regularly takes long trips in CS mode, the Volt will burn less gas overall. Of course, carbon isn't the only emission, and while coal is dirty in other ways, it is simpler to control emissions at a central, stationary location versus thousands of small moving ones. It requires motivation, but that's a seperate issue. Then there is domestic versus foreign fuel source issues.
Hey, I hate GM as much as anyone. But the issue here was whether using the PV panels to shave the peak, or using them directly, was better for your carbon footprint. Sounds like a good idea. OTOH, I would think that financing the purchase of the PV should yield similar economics, providing you can get the financing. And in a low-interest environment, diverting savings which are yielding little to no interest, into the purchase of PVs could be better yet. Different alternatives for different needs. It's great that you were able to get that arrangement. Zythryn switched from a pure gasoline car, to a partly-electric car. His driving habits means he drives mostly on electricity. His NET electric usage comes entirely from his PV panels. It is OBVIOUS that he has reduced his carbon footpring by shifting his transportation energy from 100% gasoline to mostly solar-generated electricity. The peak shaving is actually a much smaller contribution, but my original point in response to usbseawolf was that it's better to charge at night and shave the peaks than to charge during the day directly from the solar panels.
With a Prius, the PV panels will balance out carbon sourced electricity produced by operating other appliences (whether yours or somebody elses). Taking PV out of the equation, do you agree? Zythryn is not taking PV out of the equation by saying: no Volt - no PV, it seems you missed that part of my post. Of course there are other issues, thats why I said "on this issue only...")
You could buy 25 acres of land and cover it all with PV. But most people don't. Zythryn switched from all gas to mostly electric transportation, and along with the car, he installed enough PV to cover the car's electric use, which otherwise would have increased his electric usage. He kept his total electric usage constant while switching from a gas car to a partly-electric car. Why can't anyone see how simple the carbon analysis of this lifestyle change is? You could criticize him for not having bought a Leaf and going to 100% electric transportation. You could criticize him for using a car at all rather than a bicycle. But I just don't see how anyone can say that he has not reduced his carbon footprint with his Volt + PVs, given that his driving is mostly within the Volt's electric range. I personally think the Leaf would have been a better choice. But that's just me. The real issue is not what he might have done better, but that he's made a big reduction in his carbon. And from the sound of it, he's done more to reduce carbon than most of the people criticizing him.
I've often wondered how much higher the Volt's range would be if you simply dumped the ICE and it's ancillary components. It'd be cheaper, and have a greater range as well. That said, I don't hate the Volt. I simply love some things less than others ... for all the reasons many above have stated.
People here talk only about coal produced electricity - but compare to "generic" tail pipe based emission of prius. If you want to compare worst electricity - let us compare to oil from tar sands and compare well-to wheel emissions.
I believe electric propulsion is the future. I am for the renewable energy like solar, wind, hydra, geo-thermal, etc. Both petroleum and coal are non-renewable fossil fuels. I applause Zythryn for installing solar panels because I have none. The key issue I was replying to was Zythryn's claim of Volt mostly powered by coal is a clear winner over a gas powered Prius he replaced. No matter how much solar electricity he pump back into the grid, he cannot magically bring back the coal his Volt consumed - just as Prius cannot bring back the gasoline that burned. My point was, he would've been better if he kept his Prius and have the solar panels pump electrons into the grid because gasoline is cleaner than coal.
I agree with the above. And from a propulsion point of view, electric motors have so many positive benefits: Small physical size, high torque, reliability quietness, and smoothness since they don't reciprocate. There's no need to convert up and down motion into round and round, which is a major advantage.
