Diesel vs Eletric

There are a lot of inaccuracies in your post. Most of which has already been debunked and I'm too tired to go over them again. I'm not anti-diesel but most of your points are wrong.

 

If you are truly wanting to educate yourself, then as pointed out already you have many many factual inaccuracies in your post. You can research these topics on this forum and get the answer to your question.

 

The answers to your questions are already in this forum - many times.

I've seen where they've mined tin back over here in the 1750's and the plants still don't grow. I've seen pictures of mines in China where they mine for metals and resources for your flat screen tv - and they're not pretty. Oh and that's excluding the mine for the coal to power the powerstation for you to watch the tv.

If you really don't want to damage the environment DON'T buy a new car ever again, stick with the one you've got and repair it- for ever. Move to a log cabin in the middle of know where and burn wood that you have grown yourself. Never buy anything manufactured and live a life of misery BUT you can be happy that you're life won't be damaging.

p.s. Have a think about where the metals come from to make your home produced diesel car - including the precious metals in the emission control systems. Or think about the madness in shipping fruit half way round the world just for you to save 40c over the locally produced stuff.

 

is from this thread: http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii...sight-civic-hybrid-jetta-gas-tdi-wrx-sti.html

It may help explain why Prius owners are not impressed with 'clean diesels'.

 

Don't even get me going on the costs of the parts in a Diesel emissions. I just repaired my 2009 when the turbo blew oil down the tailpipe...$4900 (not including 1600 for the turbo) for all those nice emissions things they put down there. They have to build it that way in order to them to pass the new laws. They are very complex and even the TDI forums are not sure they like this stuff.

BTW..that car is now gone and I have a 2011 Prius Model 3...and love it. It gets WAY better gas milage. I was only getting 34 with the Jetta and now I am getting 44 with the Prius. Not as zippy, but it saves a ton of money.

 

To address the OP point, here are some emissions calculations based on Argonne National Laboratory's GREET model (Argonne GREET Model)...


GREET 1.81.d WTW Emissions of 2012 VW Passat TDI and 2011 Nissan Leaf

2012 Passat TDI (32.8 mpgge)

(Grams/Mile)

Emission.....................WTP.............PTW................WTW Total

HC/VOC......................0.028..............0.020.................0.048
CO.............................0.041..............0.2.....................0.241
NOx...........................0.146..............0.04...................0.186
PM.............................0.023.............0.023.................0.046
HC+NOx (US06)...........0.174..............0.01.................. 0.184
HC+NOx (SC03)...........0.174..............0.01.................. 0.184
CO (US06)...................0.041.............0.01...................0.051
CO (SC03)..................0.041.............0.00...................0.041
SOx...........................0.075.............0.002.................0.077


2011 Leaf (98 mpgge)

(Grams/Mile)

Emission....................WTP...............PTW................WTW Total

HC/VOC......................0.024...............0...........................0.024
CO............................0.070...............0...........................0.070
NOx..........................0.253...............0...........................0.253
PM............................0.384..............0.021.....................0.405
HC+NOx (US06..).........0.277..............0............................0.277
HC+NOx (SC03)...........0.277..............0............................0.277
CO (US06).................0.070..............0............................0.070
CO (SC03).................0.070..............0............................0.070
SOx..........................0.534..............0....... ....................0.534


(@ WTW emissions per GREET 1.8d.1 (comb. FTP/US06/SC03))

(Grams/Mile)


Emission...................2012 Passsat TDI..................................2011 Leaf

HC+NOx.........................0.202.................................................0.277
CO................................0.11...................................................0.07
PM................................0.046.................................................0.405
SOx...............................0.077.................................................0.534

All PM assumed to be PM10

[Total WTW GHGs = 348 g/mi (TDI); 288 g/mi (Leaf)]

The Passat TDI exhaust emissions were taken from official CARB certified emissions at useful life (UL) (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/..._u2_diesel.pdf); mpgge = mpg gasoline equivalent; WTW = well-to-wheels; WTP = well-to-pump; PTW = pump-to-wheels; the PTW PM emissions for the Leaf are mostly from tire wear (per GREET - also included in the PTW PM emissions for the TDI)

Materials Processing/Manufacturing Emissions (grams per methodology used by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy (ACEEE - http://www.greenercars.org/greenbook_method.htm); TDI = 3360 lbm; Leaf = 3354 lbm per Edmunds*)

Emission.....................2012 Passat TDI.....................................2011 Leaf (ZEV)

NOx.................................11,887.................................................15,158
CO...................................40,243.................................................37,144
PM...................................13,158.................................................16,580
SOx.................................21,706.................................................54,792
GHGs..............................7,865,474.............................................11,028,897

[GHG = 54,228,897 g (Leaf)/60,065,474 g (TDI); HC = 3600 g (Leaf)/7200 g (TDI); NOx = 53,108 g (Leaf)/39,787 g (TDI); CO = 47,644 g (Leaf)/56,743 g (TDI); PM = 77,330 g (Leaf)/20,058 g (TDI); SOx = 104,469 g (Leaf)/33,256 g (TDI) @ 150,000 miles life cycle]


*Leaf’s battery pack weighs 660 pounds - Nissan LEAF Battery


The GREET well-to-wheels calculations are based on the average U.S. grid mix per GREET.

 

Very broad brush, I would say diesels have mainly fuel efficency benefits over gasoline engines, at the expense of some higher emissions. However, for smaller/mid cars like Prius, these days the hybrid concept goes a long way to improve gaso MPG to par with diesel.

Why doesn't Europe convert to Prii? Well long story but the economy there is designed for diesel with respect to infracstructure and higher taxes on gaso. Also consumer preference for diesel.

 

and how Gen III Prius stacks up against it?

 

Haven't actually calculated the Prius against the Passat yet, but the 2011 Jetta TDI stacks up this way (using graphic because data is cumbersome to format - I can provide the raw data if any interest)...

 

Mainly it's because diesel costs must less than petrol in most European Countries. In those like the UK where petrol is cheaper you'll find more hybrids. Diesels are still popular as they do get good gas mileage in a wide range of different vehicles. Also, most cars in Europe are from European manufacturers from pro-diesel Countries like France and Germany, which also has some influence.

Countries where hybrids (and EV's) are popular are the UK, Ireland, Portugal and Holland. Diesels are very popular in Germany, France & Italy. Having been to central London a couple weeks ago I almost choked on the pollution which comes mainly from all the diesel vehicles. It is only recently (last 12 months or so) that diesel emission regulations on new vehicles have actually got close to being properly clean - despite increasing emission controls in the last 15 years.

 

Nobody recognises a troll when they see one? You'd think we'd be good at that by now.

 

What? A Troll? No way. Surely he'll come back with a counter argument and be happy to look into the facts?

 

i also, have personally seen with mine own two eyes the mines where they gets the materials for the batteries.

 

troll? naa.. he doesn't sound like one :lalala:

 

And by "the batteries" you mean all the remote controlled devices, telephones, and miscellaneous batteries for everything non-lead and non-lithium.

My uncle lives in the crater that pushed/deposited all the nickel in the region to the surface in the first place. Not that bad...

 

mainly it is because:
1. Toyota Prius/Auris are only competitive hybrids in Europe and are made by Toyota that only has 3%-4% of European market.
2. Prius/Auris in Europe is very expensive car. In my country, Auris Hybrid is $15k more expensive than base diesel. It is 10k more expensive than well equipped more powerful diesel.

So until hybrids get into VW, Fiat, PSA, Opel and Ford cars in Europe, and become only 10% more expensive than similar diesels, you wont find them really popular.

 

It is not the case in US. Prius is cheaper then diesels, gets better MPG and gas is cheaper then diesel. Base Prius II has MSRP $24,280 and Jetta TDI $24,865. Cost of building and cleaning diesel exhaust is almost the same as hybrid, YMMV

 

I agree with some of what you say spwolf but a hybrid is an expensive car and as such is more likely to sell in established rather than developing markets. Here pollution concerns are higher up peoples needs when considering a new vehicle rather than just having 'a car'. You will be aware that Eastern Europe often has lower specification cars at the lower end of the market so that new cars are accessible to more people. Over here you are unlikely to find a new car - even a low spec, base model without air conditioning, power steering and windows, central locking or alloy wheels etc.

Anyhow, going back to pollution concerns, the following shows a recently updated list of electric vehicle charging points in various Countries. The USA comes top with 1962, the UK second with 585 and New Zealand coming last with 1. I don't see Poland, Latvia or Russia on the list. This doesn't mean these Countries don't have pollution concerns but the relative higher cost of hybrids and EV's price themselves out of the market.

United States: 1962
United Kingdom: 585
Austria: 382
Sweden: 239
Portugal: 119
Hong Kong: 101
Norway: 85
Denmark: 58
Japan: 29
Finland: 21
Netherlands: 5
Ireland: 4
Australia: 3
Canada: 1
New Zealand: 1