How much electricity does an oil refinery use?

AG- I can't believe you want to debit me for the corn/Ethanol
Fair game I guess.

 

Yes I went there. You have to admit it is on topic of non oil energy used to make gas added after the oil gets to the refinery.

I did not put the ethanol contribution in the lower bound estimate. I only included an estimate of the energy inputs used to make corn ethanol. It is the biggest contributors of this energy in E10. No judgement was given on land, water, polution, or other biofuels. The original idea was this energy would reduce use of oil. Using the energy instead to move EVs is more efficient than to produce, distil, transport, and blend corn based ethanol.

If the United States reduces gasoline consumption by 25%, it should reduce ethanol consumption by 25%, baring implementation of some of those EPA goals of increasing the mandate to a higher percentage in gasoline. The energy to produce this ethanol can be used instead to power a fleet of EV and PHEV vehicles. Moving to more efficient biofuels can free up more fuel for generating electricity.

 

We still at 0.16 KWhr elec purchase per gallon oil refined, US national average. Some said nat gas is also used by refineries: the DOE link says 750,000 Million SCF/yr. Converting the nat gas to gallons of oil equivalents, I got 0.02 equiv. gals of nat gas per gallon oil refined or about 2 vol%. I have no idea % of that NG is then used for CoGen/elec power, but perhaps equal amount of elec is purchased vs. made at refinery in the USA.

Things like California, Los Angeles, La Brea tar pit tar need more energy input than the national averages. True.
Sorry about what God gave California, he/she must have a good sense of humor. :amen:

Here is a nice energy calc link (somebody check me)-
www.eppo.go.th/ref/UNIT-OIL.html

 

Which, if accurate, is still irrelevant in the big picture - though possibly of some use to answer the OP's question.

It almost sounds like you haven't been paying attention - you sound skeptical that there are other energy inputs at refineries, though you seem to admit that some people think there is some NG use...

Anyway... here is the list of energy inputs that refineries use:
U.S. Fuel Consumed at Refineries

And again - the energy inputs at the refinery is just one part of the huge puzzle. The system that ends with gas in your car uses energy inputs from beginning to end - NOT just at the refinery.

 

DarellDD- Your data LINK is the raw data source I used.
Yes there are some other energy inputs given (steam, coal, etc).
As time permits I will try to add them up so we can understand it.
But probably elec and nat gas are the biggest inputs.

Fundamentally, I proved my point (so far). I said: as a first approximation, oil is "ready-made". No need to do life-cycle anaylsis adding in mega-tons of hidden energy inputs to crude. My numbers proved that so far. I showed maybe 5% energy input to the crude (elec+gas), but I also showed 5% vol gain. You on the other hand (and pro-EV activists) are trying to treat fossil fuels like ethanol and EV, that is to say, you are trying to do a complex life cycle anaysis to see if there are mega-tons of hidden energy inputs to fossil fuels. Lacking data, you just go ahead and assert huge hidden energy inputs. But I am saying, to save you some "energy", you do not really need to go there, because when you do, you will find for fossil fuels, WYSIWYG as a first approximation. For things like alternate fuel, ethanol, yes we need this life-cycle calc to see how it compares, but it is a complex PhD thesis calc and no one agrees exactly.

Also was trying to say, I can partially understand your energy view if I look at it from California perspective. CA is different (tar pits etc) and due to the CA stagnant air smog geographic problem. I think EV, HEV, PHV makes good sense in CA. Thank you Toyota on behalf of CA.

 

Yes, several.

 

I think so. Let me know which information is missing.

Oil Refineries are various sizes, but in the UK they use enough electricity to power around 1 million BEVs. They also generate some power on site although we don't know exactly how much. If the ones in the UK are similar to the ones in the US, they use enough natural gas to generate enough electricity to power around 2 million more BEVs, but some of those plants will need to be built.

That sounds like a lot, but other things than gas are refined. On a purely allocated by volume level refineries only use about

0.15 kwh/gallon of gasoline refined. If they were not refining gas though, they likely would find other materies for the other things coming from oil, so gasoline should get a bigger share, IMHO 0.3 kwh/gallon.

In the US refineries are concentrated on the gulf coast and their are divided grids. The ERCOT grid is very similar to the one in the UK and would take a disproportionate amount of the electricity as it is issolated and the biggest used for refining. ERCOT also is adding wind at a great pace. If people charge in ERCOT at non-peak times (peak is 3pm-7pm summer) there is plenty of excess capacity to charge all the EVs. The grid in the UK can takes some of the excess French nuclear power and north sea wind power if charging is done off peak, so not nearly as much power needs to be built for EVs as the times article suggested. If those cars are charged on peak its a different story.

 

Nice! So after I provide the data... I'm accused of having no data. This Lovely bit of conversation we're having. There are energy inputs into the system all along the way. The refinery is just one stop, and apparently your contention is that's the biggest energy stop. You are right because you've got no horse in the race, and I'm wrong because apparently I've got a hidden agenda. How'm I doing so far?

From what you say above, I'm to understand that there is no significant energy consumed in the exploration for, the drilling and pumping of the crude before it makes its way to the refinery? And for which type of oil is this? Does the "hard" oil have more energy inputs do you suppose? Like getting it from sands and shale? Or are we just talking about the "easy" oil? Or are we to ignore all of that because we only need to look at the big picture for alternative energy?

Seriously, I think I got off the train at the wrong stop.

 

I think we have. As you can tell, I'm curious as to why this specific, elastic number was wanted or needed? While WJTRACY has convinced himself that this number is the end-game of energy used to get gasoline into your tank from the crude oil in the ground, I contend that we're just scratching at the real number.

 

Very good. My point all along in this thread is that:
1. Electricity is not the only energy input that can be used to power EVs instead of making gasoline
2. That power inputs do NOT only come in at the refinery - plenty more is used at the stages before the oil even reaches the refineries.

The fact is, making gasoline is an energy-intensive process. And only looking at how much the refineries use does not tell the whole story. That's why I initially took issue with the vary narrow question (only electricity use, and only at the refinery). The better question, and the one that I assumed you were asking (that you have just confirmed here), is:
"How much energy is used to make gasoline (or diesel)"?

THAT is the relevant question here. that answer tells us how many miles an EV could travel if the energy that is today used to make gasoline (or diesel) is instead used to charge an EV.

 

If you take the price of gasoline, subtract the taxes, the price of the crude oil and profits along the way, it would appear that the energy cost of producing gasoline is exaggerated by some.

Refinery costs and profits run roughly 10% of the retail price of a gallon of gasoline. That includes total refinery operating costs and profit, including energy.

Estimated 2011 Gasoline Price Breakdown & Margins Details

 

It would seem as though there are various missing elements. (sorry for the broken record) costs per gallon for lobby fees whereby favorable tax structures go to oil companies ... costs per gallon to keep dictators of many oil rich countires in power ... costs per gallon for toxic cleanup ... costs per gallon for the 9 (or more) dry holes drilled for every 1 that pays off ... and that's just off the top of my head

.

 

It would be awesome if it were that simple. Should we take away the subsidies (or let's call them socialized costs) as well? And how about the fact that the price they pay for their energy is way the heck lower than we retail customers could ever hope to see. I'm afraid that we can't determine the amount of energy used by looking at the balance sheet. Likely it is far more accurate to look at the actual energy inputs instead!

 

I don't mind your broken record. Some things are worth repeating.:humble:

I agree with much of what you said, and, US military expenses/gallon may be even bigger than most of the costs you mentioned (although they are partially covered by keeping dictators of oil rich countries in power). But those things don't deal with the energy required to refine crude into gasoline.

The dry well cost is already in the price of crude, so I don't think it has any first order effect on things.

 

Indeed. I don't know where my post went that had some similar comments.

I'd asked about accounting for the subsidies (or socialized costs if you will) that the oil industry enjoys. And the fact that the oil industry pays far less for their energy inputs than we retail customers would ever hope to see. And they create their OWN energy (that could also be used for other uses if we weren't making gasoline). It turns out that accounting for the actual energy input is a far better gauge of same as compared to converting it to money.

 

When you get actual energy inputs from a reliable source, let us know.

 

Some business models don't want you to know all their modeling. How many decades was it ... two? three? ... that the tobacco industry was able to play hide & seek with the "actuals" ? all the while, their industry officials were saying, what ... what ... we're not doing anything ..."

If only it were as simple as breaking the tobacco industry tactics ... it may be a long long time.

 

You are getting a long ways from the thread topic. What does that have to do with how much electricity an oil refinery uses? If you don't agree that the amount of electricity used is in the refinery costs, let's hear where you think they have hidden it.

The tobacco industries primary lie was about health effects, much easier to hide than the massive amounts of electricity usage claimed by some for oil refining.

For one thing, oil industry energy purchased is a tax deduction that helps offsets income. No way are they going to hide that. If they could get away with it, they would exaggerate it.