What services you need and what you don't

Re: What services you need and what you don't

My dealer discouraged me from changing transaxle fluid in my '07 with 65k miles. So, I didn't.

I keep seeing this recommendation from Independents but the dealer keeps saying I shouldn't.

What to do...

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

Synthetic oil provides far greater wear protection than the usual garbage sold as motor oil in the US. In Europe there are closely defined standards and legal limits for motor oil. Not so in the US. That is why ordinary petroleum oil in a Prius has a change interval of 10,000 miles in Europe. Synthetic motor oil has a change interval of 20,000 miles in Europe. The Prius is a sealed engine system and strongly resists dirt getting into the engine. It's not your fathers' GM, Ford or Chrysler.

Use high quality 100% synthetic oil, change at 20,000 mile intervals, keep an occasional eye on the condition of the oil on the dip stick, and your car will improve in performance, gas mileage, and operating seals.

As far as early, before 125,000 miles, changes of trans-axle fluid, get the dealer to check it, as it says in the manual, and don't listen to the mind jammers. Do you really want to listen to the random dingbats who know nothing about what Toyota has created?

When Toyota makes a statement about service life for their fluids, lubricants, coolants and brake fluids, etc., they make a legally binding statement about the useful limits of those fluids. Do as you would if you were in Europe and follow those Toyota guides. Toyota corporate will not fault you for using the best stuff on your car. Use the web of lies to search out some truth.

 

Rusty, RonRay, you both need to research the transaxle fluid issue. Many, many people have had analysis performed on the fluid and found very high levels of wear metals in the factory fill, well before 100,000 miles. Any sensible tech that checks a car with the original fluid at 25,000+ miles would find its dark, clotted-blood-looking color to be reason enough to suggest changing it. Finally, Toyota Canada specs a change every 60,000 miles (96,000 km). An extra $100 spent every 60,000 miles is peanuts compared to the cost of a new transaxle installed ($5,000) or a salvage one ($2000).

Most of us random mind-jamming dingbats making the early change suggestion have advanced degrees in engineering or science.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

I think that's right. And first off, I don't give a hoot what Toyota Canada says: I will change mine, a lot sooner. The language in the Recommended Maintenance section of Toyota Canada's publication Owner's Manual supplement is very confusing, since it covers every car they make. Here's the text, and I believe it backs you up, but it's pretty convoluted:

Ok, looking at the above: are they still saying to change it. Or just inspect it. As I say, mine's coming out, a lot sooner, but I wish they'd be clear.

 

Yeah, I hate that... how much am I spending for a new car and they can't even go to the small effort to print me a manual specific to the car they're selling me. In the days of computers this would be so easy, but no...

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

The Prius manual asks for inspections, lots of inspections, and it is rather specific. However, try to find some facts about lubricant quality as common in this country, and Canada, you will find we are supplied with total crap as a matter of course. This is not allowed, by law, in Europe. It's those nasty regulations so many folk complain about; Europe has them and good things follow, we don't and we get the crap of creation.

The stuff Toyota supplies for 100,000 mile nominal life is the good stuff spec'd to what Toyota knows is needed. Along with the normal wear expected in parts accommodating to each other the chemicals and lubricants Toyota specifies do the job for at least the period called for. So, metal traces are expected, and designs of sumps and magnetic plugs handle that to keep it away from the load bearing surfaces.

The Prius is NOT a 'normal' can of bolts we grew accustomed to at the hands of GM, Ford, Chrysler, etc., so you can stop expecting the surprises they handed us from dangerous and lackadaisical design.

I know mine handles more like a race car than a family sedan.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

The average person who follows the maintenance schedule and pulls a sample and merely visually inspects transaxle fluid after 30,000 miles will think, "holy crap, that looks god-awful, I'd better change it." Have you checked yours yet? I am not an advocate of overly-conservative maintenance, just look for my comments on brake fluid, which I personally think would be the only fluid to last the life of the car. A tranny fluid change every 100,000 may be OK for you in particular, given the lack of extremely hot days in WY. But why would Toyota even suggest inspection every 30,000 miles on a fluid that is supposed to be "lifetime fill"????? For all the stories of Gen II transaxle failures here, none of the owners mentioned having had a fluid change.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

If you truly believe that statement, then my guess is that you haven't had much experience driving cars with world-class suspensions - for example BMW or Mercedes.

At best, Prius handling is adequate, but it won't win any prizes, especially when equipped with original equipment front struts and rear shocks that are pretty worn out after 60K miles or so of use. Not to mention the front suspension thumping and clunking which has been complained about in various postings in this forum.

The suspension design can be characterized as "agricultural" because of the rear beam axle and the simple front McPherson suspension. This is reasonable since the car's price starts in the low $20K range and it contains an exceptional amount of technology and electronics in its hybrid drivetrain. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that the car's handling is like a race car.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

You are trying to confuse people with facts

But, it gets better, the transmission fluid inspection in the Gen 3 manual is strictly a fluid level check.

One of the great automotive fallacies that some people get sucked into believing is that owners manual maintenance recommendations are what the people that designed and tested the cars think is best.

Unless we know what the engineers that designed the transmission and selected the fluid would do if it were their own car and they used it under conditions similar to ours and expected their car to last as long as we do, we don't really know what is the Toyota Engineering correct change interval for our car. What we do have is a one size fits an entire country recommendation that is a corporate number derived with heavy input from marketing and other non-technical groups.

Fortunately, we also have data from PC members who have had used oil analysis, sometimes with particle count data, on their car's transmission fluid. What their data shows is that the transmission fluid should be changed NLT 30k miles the first time based on the amount of hard contamination in the fluid.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

Not to mention that the extended warranty offered by Toyota ends at 100K miles. As long as the maintenance schedule allows the drivetrain to last at least that long, then no worries (from Toyota's point of view.) Further, the auto industry expects that 150K miles is "end of life" for their products.

If you wish your vehicle's drivetrain to last substantially longer than 100K or 150K miles then a judicious amount of additional maintenance might be called for. If you don't care then you don't need to worry about transaxle ATF changes.

 

How about the high mileage Prius cabs? Be interesting to know what sort of transaxle fluid change interval they're using, on average.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

The US document is specific to Prius, better in that regard than the Canadian text, but: it goes interval-by-interval, with a page devoted to each. Infinitely easier to understand is a spreadsheet format, say with with the time/mileage columns and service rows.

If you take the US document, go through it page-by-page and translate it to spreadsheet format, you notice a few anomalies. Just much easier to spot.

Of course the #1 US maintenance is checking the dang floor mat

 

That's the maintenance book, right. The manual also has the issue, but not re nonprius items... for example, I don't have the nav system, so there need be no mention of it in the manual for MY car.

They just needed somewhere to click through a menu of options included in the car, then hit print and a manual for the particular car is printed out. i and likely everyone else would prefer that to the nice glossy one that is difficult to quickly figure out which parts apply. What I'd like even more is them to ALSO hand me the manual on a cd rom in a fully searchable form... likely I could find that on line somewhere...

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

Patrick, of course I believe a Prius handles more like a race car than a family sedan or I would not have written it. What I didn't say was that it compares with a Merc 300 SL.
DUH!
And actually, the CG is low enough to provide some exciting cornering and the struts are certainly stiff enough and the suspension geometry is balanced enough to provide excellent control compared to a minivan, which is presently the equivalent of your grand dad's Chevy wagon.

Don't believe me. Check with the actual CG and mass balances.

As for the beam axle, one of the fastest circle track cars I knew of used a solid rear axle and won national modified championships for many years. Well, they all were solid rear axle machines except for a few guys fooling with four wheel independent suspensions.

Now, modifieds run front wheel drive.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

Thanks, great tips!

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

[\QUOTE]I'm sticking to oil changes every 5,000 miles, though. It's a cheap service, and I have a good independent mechanic who doesn't use oil changes as an excuse to upsell.[/QUOTE]

We're on the decline side of peak oil. Switch to synthetic and you can change every 20,000 miles while providing better protection. I've had the oil analysis done to prove it.
Regards, Jerry

 

Jerry, what grade and manufacturer of synth do you use, and are you able to go 20,000 between changes without adding more oil?

 

I've done searches on "hybrid drive oil" and come up with nothing. Am I missing something here? My mechanic says it's way over due to be changed, and I can't find any info on it anywhere.

 

I'll bet he's talking about the transaxle -- that is where the two electric motor/generators are. It takes 4 quarts of Toyota ATF WS. Expect to pay $80-$100 for it.

 

Re: What services you need and what you don't

Thanks so much for the info!
Someone recommended the "self-test of the 12V battery" - is this needed? I would have to look this up also as I am not familiar with it!

Jo