Are coal-powered electric cars really better for the environment?

Hypotheticals? No. Realities. No flying pigs. I have a friend in Davis, California who drives a RAV4 EV, powered entirely from his own solar panels. You're right, there's not enough sun where I live for this to work, but there's plenty of rain and no shortage of hydroelectric power. In both of these situations, your graph does not apply.

 

I read posts like this and I think the country would be so much better off if we refused the right to vote to anybody unable to multiply and divide, and instead utilized the moron labor in the fields to pick crops. That way they can blabber nonsense all day long and be useful, too.

I know this will not help you Octane, but 20*24=480.
Second, running a Smart EV e.g. at my home would require 240 sq ft of PV.
Third, PV upfront costs come close to covering 30 years. Divide your $10,000 by 360 months.

It is no wonder your politics are so idiotic, when you seem incapable of estimating reality within a magnitude error.

 

I know I am probably wasting my time trying to show basic arithmetic to T-baggers, but here goes:

Modern residential PV is rated about 9 watts/square_foot
PVwatts.org will let any T-bagger see annual kwh production per installed watt by zip code
EV cars go 2 - 6 miles/kwh, depending on conditions, driver, car etc.

Example: Drive 10k miles a year, consuming a kwh each 5 miles.
My zip produces 2 kwh a year per installed watt
This takes 2000 kwh a year, and so needs 1000 watts installed
1000 watts / 9 watts/foot^2 = 111 square feet installation area.

 

Did you read the article?
It shows clearly that in the low carbon scenario of electricity generation, like the one hyo silver has, PHEVs have distinct advantage over CVs (and over HEVs as well).

Giora.

 

It is a lot less than that, my dense T-bagger compatriot in arithmetic.

But sure, use your number. The PV install is good for over 30 years. What part of clean PV at 1/2 the price of dirty coal does your political ideology hate so much ? 'Liberal' taint ? Not praised by Sarah Palin or the Koch brothers ?

Troglodytes evolve, eventually. But they do have to leave the cave.

 

Glad to hear you make yourself useful, at least a little bit.

Find in my post where I estimated PV wattage for a GM Volt. Also notice I gave an *example* with pre-conditions, so that you could (hopefully) follow the arithmetic. Lastly, I am not surprised by your ignorance, that EV sub-compacts consuming 200 wh/mile are a practical reality for suburban/city use.

Here is the real point, though: you bought into Tea-bagger ideological stupidity because you read that an entire roof cannot power one measly car by PV. Now that you know you have been BS'd, do you change your opinion ? Hell no, you are a tea-bagger. Beliefs before facts, logic, and reasoning.

 

These are not error bars.
The graph (without the bars) is for US avarage mix (670 gCO2/kwh), the bottoms of the bars represent low carbon mix scenario (200 g/kwh) the tops represent the carbon intensive scenario (950 g/kwh).

Giora.

 

The numbers speak for themselves, and the 1/2 cost (or less) to the consumer is correct. The reason PV is not on every house is because the upfront cost requires a long term horizon to realize the profit. Since most Americans cannot see past their beer bellies and live by the 'monthly payment,' they are unable to make a wise financial decision.

 

PV at my home is awaiting neighborhood permission; unfortunately I am surrounded by reactionary homeowners.

I priced out the install very carefully. 9/2010 prices were

Code:

240 watts*16 @$2.6/watt=3.8kw Array----------$10000
Rack-------------------------------------------------$2400
Poles@$12.5/linear foot+$35 shipping------------$410
Cement Work---------------------------------------$675/pole ~ 1350
Electrician+supplies--------------------------------$1300		
Permitting/Engineering(pole holes)---------------$400
Inverter---------------------------------------------$2618
------------------------------------------------------$18280

This is $4.8/watt before any federal, state, or utility subsidy.
Federal and State subsidy drop the install price to $2.88/watt
My residential rate is 11 cents a kwh,
Utility production credit is 13 cents a kwh
My locality will produce 2 kwh/installed_watt each year.

Soo .... ...
Payback is 288/(24*2) = SIX years. The PTC continues for 10 years.

Questions, tea-bagger ?

 

My prior calcs (with coal) showed that a EV (Volt) at 2 Mile per KWhr, which is what Consumer Reports measured in the recent auto issue, equals burning about 3.5 times more coal (pounds) than a Prius would burn pounds of gasoline to go the same distance. In other words, <15 MPG (equivalent MPGs) for the coal-EV in that (winter driving) scenario. Of course no one is making electricity just from all coal. Also, the 2 mile per Kwhr is on the low side. But if you think EV is green, I for one am not so sure. I also wrote both Consumer Reports and US EPA about these calcs (hope its correct!). Did not get any feedback yet from either.

PS- But the electriclty is real cheap in most states, so aside from battery cost, electricity is a much cheaper fuel right now.

 

The irony in this entire (EV+PV) discussion is that Octane may be right, although that is dumb luck unrelated to tea-bagger lunacy. The biggest unknown is EV car cost over time, and specifically battery longevity and replacement costs.

It seems reasonably clear that a homeowner intent on saving money and not being an environmental jerk does the following:
Home energy conservation;
Solar heating for most of the US;
PV to cover the remainder of home electric;
High mileage HV.

EV run on PV is for early adopters, since as I mentioned above the costs are uncertain.

 

Good doG. I have no idea where to begin. And I ALMOST choose to not accept the bait. But you know me! I'm a glutton for punishment.

@ Octane - would a dose of reality change any of your preconceived assumptions? Or are you pretty much dead-set in what you read and feel? I mean I'd hate to be wasting my time countering your contentions with reality....

I've been driving an EV as my primary car for over 10 years now. I have had a solar system on my house for eight years. I have no hypotheticals to share - so I can't argue those. I'm dealing strictly with reality. Right here on Earth.

OK. Well I DID knock myself out - because I own a "full electric" and a have a solar system that provides all my power. Your assumptions are wrong and so is your math. What are you trying to prove? That solar is expensive and therefor coal can't be replaced with it? And in the next logical leap - that gasoline is better than coal because it magically appears in the tanks of our gas cars?

There have been countless peer-reviewed studies that fly in the face of your claims. Yes there are some edge cases where EVs will pollute more than gas cars. And yes coal mining and coal burning are bad. Very bad. Today's reality is that our grid is a bit less than half coal... and getting less every year. And hear this:

In 2010, 18.2 GW of solar and 35.8 GW of wind energy were installed globally. This is enough renewable energy, installed in one year, to power over 50 million EVs! Every year into the future, we'll install even more wind and solar. The new renewable energy installed on the grid will forever outpace the additional electrical load of EVs. How does that compare to our gasoline use... and where oil (and gasoline) will be coming from in the future?

So let's pretend that electricity is as inefficient and polluting as you claim. Tell me this: How many kWh to you personally use, and what kinds of things are you using that energy for? Is it OK to use electricity for trivial things like toys, swimming pools, TVs and other non-essential things, but it's not OK to use it for essentials like transportation?

If we did nothing more but remove every backyard swimming pool in this country we'd likely never need to build more power plants for EVs. On a yearly basis, my neighbor's pool uses an almost identical number of kWh's as my EV. Why are we not complaining about THAT sort of electricity usage? Or maybe it would be better to power pool pumps with gasoline to help clean our air.

And finally - let me know just how many kWh of electricity went into getting your gas tank filled? Once you've answered that, pretty much all of the rest of this is meaningless detail. Oh... and then you BURN that gasoline to move your car? How can you justify all the dirty electricity that went into creating the dirty gasoline?

Yup, and almost every one of us who drives a freeway capable EV also fuels it with sunshine. The tens of thousands who drive gas cars? They seem to burn gasoline. I may have missed your point.

Do you just make this stuff up and believe it? Completely and utterly wrong. What else is there to say? I have solar on half of my garage roof and that system powers my entire house AND my car for 10,000 miles per year. Those who don't have a roof (you know - my friends who live in trees and eat berries) can install solar on free-standing pods. It isn't that hard.

And again totally wrong. I love these WAG "payback" assumptions - they make my day more colorful. Really... where do I start? You are just cherry-picking (inaccurate) data. I can't tell if it is on purpose or through ignorance, but either way... wrong. I'm happy to report that my "payback" was the moment I turned my array on. My reality simply does not support any of your crazy WAGS.

I won't even start with the subsidies for gasoline, as you've already discounted those as being somehow meaningless.