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Are coal-powered electric cars really better for the environment?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Octane, Apr 20, 2011.

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  1. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    That we can agree on.
     
    #21 SageBrush, Apr 20, 2011
  2. DarkStarPDX

    DarkStarPDX Junior Member

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    The LEAF has zero CO2 output... If you want to consider the source of the electricity, you have to consider the source of the gasoline. For example, it takes at least 7 kWh of electricity to refine crude oil to one gallon of gasoline. That same 7 kWh of electricity in a battery will move the LEAF down the road 30 miles...
     
    #22 DarkStarPDX, Apr 20, 2011
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  3. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Quite true, DSPDX.
    Your figure about matches EPA, which uses 18% energy loss in oil -> petrol conversion.

    But consider the other figures that go into the electricity lifecyle:
    *30-32% national average grid efficiency, compared to 35%+ Prius ICE;
    *10% waste at the energy plant;
    *7% energy losses from plant delivery to home for electricity;
    15-20% losses from wall socket to traction battery.

    The approximate energy delivery from powerplant to battery is 22.5%. An EV is about 85% efficient, so 19% of powerplant source energy ends up at the wheels. Compare that to a Prius with a 35% ICE and about 96% transmission of energy: .82 * .35*.96 = 27.5% of pre-refinery energy makes it to the wheels.

    * Numbers from doe.gov with a little rounding for my convenience.
     
    #23 SageBrush, Apr 20, 2011
  4. Corwyn

    Corwyn Energy Curmudgeon

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    that 7 kWh is measured where?

    By all means let's do a well to wheel analysis!
     
    #24 Corwyn, Apr 20, 2011
  5. Rybold

    Rybold globally warmed member

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    Why is an article about coal and electric cars in the Prius and Hybrid News forum ???
     
    #25 Rybold, Apr 20, 2011
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  6. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    #26 usbseawolf2000, Apr 20, 2011
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  7. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    That's right. NOTHING exists. Thus, as oil/coal production peaks, and the most simplistic business principals of ROI take over, we simply can no longer have our (basically free) petro-fuel .... and so in stead of fossil fuel, we end up with .... [your answer here].
    Then again, some people simply poo poo the reality of peak fossil substance, choosing to parrot, "there's no shortage of fuel ... it's all just a big oil conspiracy". Yea. If YOU had a product that sold for over $100/barrel, I'm sure YOU would be holding it back. Right. Good luck with that math.
    ;)
    Even if there WERE over 50 years before we hit critical mass . . . . should we wait? I guess so, because in the likely even that we ARE within a few years of peaking production, we are waiting ... choosing to leave the issue for some time down the road. great
    Sure ... do DOE numbers include even 1% of our multi trillion dollar dollar military budget, which is necessary so we can remain entrenched in oil rich countries, where over HALF of our oil is coming from? No? Well the coal mine's earth moving equipment fuel hasn't switched over to running on sunshine, & the laughter of little children, last time I checked.

    .
     
    #27 hill, Apr 21, 2011
  8. GrumpyCabbie

    GrumpyCabbie Senior Member

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    And nobody has mentioned LOCAL air pollution here. The Leaf gives zero which is great if you're walking through a city street.
     
    #28 GrumpyCabbie, Apr 21, 2011
  9. Octane

    Octane Proud Member of 100 MPG Club

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    Your side has been wrong since 1974. We are running out of oil! We are running out of food! There's an ice age coming! The seas are going to rise by 20 meters due to global warming! Y2K is going to get us all! Woe I say to you, the end is near. The end is near.

    You are just frightened little children afraid to face the future. Instead, you are control freaks that want to FEEL that you somehow are going to alter the outcome with your intentions today. You aren't.

    Practically overnight, under sanctions South Africa perfected coal gassification (SASOL process). Nearly overnight we'd find a way to convert methane into a replacement fuel for our vehicles if we had to. Within a decade we could replace the entire grid with nuclear; thereby, eliminating nearly 50% of our fossil fuel consumption.

    We are a country that went from concept to flying the first 747 in less than 30 months. We don't need your hysteria.

    I'm fed up with the completely bogus and specious claim that somehow our fuel is practically free. It's not. It's price is a reflection of the economies of mass production and the application of technology towards that end. It's wholesale price is commensurate with a gallon of any other industrial liquid except perhaps water. Maybe you'll start a mantra how "free" water is a bad thing too.

    No, your side only considers the "real" price to be paid when the government is grifting huge taxes off gasoline sales. THAT you consider paying the "REAL" cost.
     
    #29 Octane, Apr 21, 2011
  10. Octane

    Octane Proud Member of 100 MPG Club

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    Does the upcoming Toyota Prius PHEV not run on coal too? Or is there a different forum for plug in Prii?
     
    #30 Octane, Apr 21, 2011
  11. Octane

    Octane Proud Member of 100 MPG Club

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    I especially don't remember the wind farms destroying Martha's Vineyard when they exploded. I don't remember them being built, either. I seem to remember a leading environmentalist/politician stopped them from being built due to their horrific and catastrophic environmental impact.
     
    #31 Octane, Apr 21, 2011
  12. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    :tape2::pound:
     
    #32 hyo silver, Apr 21, 2011
  13. giora

    giora Senior Member

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    #33 giora, Apr 21, 2011
  14. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    #34 usbseawolf2000, Apr 21, 2011
  15. Octane

    Octane Proud Member of 100 MPG Club

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    #35 Octane, Apr 21, 2011
  16. giora

    giora Senior Member

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    Excuse my ignorance - who is ADM?
     
    #36 giora, Apr 21, 2011
  17. Octane

    Octane Proud Member of 100 MPG Club

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    The funny thing is that the HEV is the only vehicle to demonstrably reduce GHG emissions and it is the ONE vehicle that CARB actually hindered growth of. Anything that plugs into the wall could well exceed the GHG emissions of even a conventional vehicle according to this graph:

    [​IMG]

    I can't find where the author defined his usage of error bars, but if the error bar is 1 sigma which is convention, then any of the PHEVs could be worse than the conventional vehicle.

    It's just plain dumb that people don't realize using electricity is inefficient and consumes more fuel and may produce even more greenhouse gas emissions (if that's even a meaningful metric).
     
    #37 Octane, Apr 21, 2011
  18. Octane

    Octane Proud Member of 100 MPG Club

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    Archer Daniels Midland (We feed the world). They are the biggest criminals behind the push for ethanol.
     
    #38 Octane, Apr 21, 2011
  19. Octane

    Octane Proud Member of 100 MPG Club

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    There are about 196 countries on the face of the earth. We have troops deployed in 150 of them. That is, we have deployed troops in 77% of the countries on the planet. We have nearly 80,000 troops in Europe alone.

    Stop the lie that we deploy our military because of oil. We are an imperial nation and we deploy our military for any reason we see fit. To add this into the cost of gasoline makes as much sense as adding it to the cost of a Rolex watch or a German cuckoo clock.

    It's the cost of our being the super power.

    This interactive map is fascinating:

    Military Maps | Mother Jones
     
    #39 Octane, Apr 21, 2011
  20. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    That's entirely dependent on how the electricity is produced. If you've got solar panels recharging your EV, or if you live where most of the electricity used is hydroelectric, your statement is an absurd lie.
     
    #40 hyo silver, Apr 21, 2011
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