43mpg Lexus CT200h is now on dealer lots starting at $29,999 (photos)

Not so.

One of the European CT200h models is an eco one (Comfort E) weighing about the same as the Prius and having 195/65 tires on 15" alloy rims (with "aerodynamic" rims covers) and aerodynamic rear roof spoiler/diffuser (with winglets?), these two lower the CD from 0.29 to 0.28.
The fuel consumption of the Comfort E model is 3.8 l/100km (fuel economy of 61.9 mpg) in the Euro test cycle. This is better than the prius scoring 3.9 l/100km (60.3 mpg) on the same cycle.
The other two models are with "standard" spoiler, one with 205/55 tires on 16" alloy rims and one with 215/45 tires on 17" alloy rims, both weigh about 30 kg more than the prius and score 4.1 l/100km (57.4 mpg).

The difference in EPA estimates lies elsewhere.
Anyone knows if the US CT200h has Exhaust Gas Recooperation (EGR) with Exhaust Heat Recovery (EHR)? The European versions have them and this can make a difference.
Also, as far as I know EPA estimate has some corrections to make it more applicable to real life fuel economy (correct me if I'm wrong), which means that it can be easier to achieve. The euro cycle is more "theoretical simulation" harder to achieve in real life (but is repeatable). It may be (as pointed out by usbseawolf2000 in another thread) that the CT200h is more sporty tuned so its fuel economy takes a hit in any demand other than "mild".

Giora.

 

i don't understand why they wouldn't release this one with the lithium ion batteries instead of the old nickel metal hydride ones. maybe trying to get rid of the old stock?

 

I also noticed the lack of EGR and EHR in the US CT200h literatures. They may have been dropped to reduce the cost. However, the initial owner MPGs reported over at CT200hForum looks great. They are beating the EPA figures. If EGR and EHR are missing, I would not expect MPGs that high in the current "still cold" unusual March weather.

 

Why would they want/need to? I doubt that they're getting rid of old stock. The Toyota Production System calls for just in time part production and delivery and not big stockpiles (Just-in-Time | TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION GLOBAL WEBSITE).

I'd assume that we'll continue to see NiMH batteries used in new 3rd gen Priuses at least until the 4th gen, whenever that is.

 

thanks...the toyota site you gave me is an interesting read, however, it's a severely generalized way to market toyota as efficient to the general public. this system wouldn't necessarily account for parts manufactured by outsourced companies, like their nimh batteries which are manufactured by panasonic. not to mention that nimh is cheaper and less efficient than li-ion.

re: lexus ct200h, something that toyota is trying to market as luxury and 'performance' oriented, is hardly so with the upgrade in price with basically what is still a prius with a lexus emblems & interior touches. my thought is that you would've hoped that they debuted the li-ion batteries for better 'performance' and to separate it from the prius.

i read that the li-ion ct200h is coming soon after, but is it sooner than later? anyone know for sure?

 

Uhh... AFAIK, Toyota wants the suppliers to follow TPS as well. They have a joint venture now called Primearth (Toyota's battery venture with Panasonic gets renamed Primearth EV Energy — Autoblog Green). I'd seen a very old piece on TV on TPS (done in the 90s, it looked like) and at the time, Toyota provided free TPS consulting to other companies.

Take a look at The Toyota way: 14 management ... - Google Books.

The piece that I mentioned talked about the differences (and disadvantages) of mass production vs. lean JIT production. It would be goofy if a supplier went w/mass production.

Source for "i read that the li-ion ct200h is coming soon after"? I can understand your logic about wanting to segment the market, but what's the "better 'performance'" part?

 

At current batteries technology, the combination of power handling, safety, durability and price make the NiMH battery a very good solution for HEVs.
Lion big advantage in energy density makes it attractive to plug-ins and BEVs.
Cannot see the Lion "efficiency" and "performance" superiorities you mentioned.
All the chances are that future plug-in version of the CT200h will use Lion.

Giora.

 

We did a test drive of the CT200H at our local Lexus dealer yesterday.
Pros: I liked its appearance. It handled much more sharply than our base Gen II. It did have easily selectable "modes." Nice to have height adjustable driver's seat.
Cons: It was sorely lacking in interior space, having much less rear passenger leg room and half (or less) rear storage room. The visibility was way less than the Gen II. The front seating area felt cramped and confining. And, who needs different modes, anyway?

 

Apart from handling, was the ride any smoother than a Prius? I love ours to pieces but it reads every bump like a finger over braille.

If the CT200h is much smoother in the saddle then it looks like an exciting development to me! (I actually rewound the DVR last night to watch the commercial for it a few times. My gal was rolling her eyes.)

 

Auto industry (heck, the world) is having a really hard time getting high power over time out of any types of batteries. Sure, the Tesla is a rocket, but IIRC, the battery in the Roadster weighs something like 1,000 lbs. ... and it has a carbon fiber body. I seriously doubt a Li-ion in a CT would shave a second off its 0 to 60.

Prius PHV demo has a Li-ion pack and I believe it's a little more leisurely than reg Prius.

 

Then again, Honda using Li-ion in the upcoming civic hybrid.

 

If anything, I think the Lexus suspension feels more taught and less "floaty" than the Prius suspension. The Lexus' steering was noticably more precise and sporty. Something I read at the dealer stated that the suspension was adjusted somehow when you chose "Sport" mode. Can't imagine how that takes place, though.

 

The answer is YES. CT200h does have EGR and EHR.

Click on the EFFICIENCY button on the e-borchure.

2011 Lexus CT

 

Toyota has joint venture with Panasonic for batteries, they dont simply buy it from Panasonic (unlike other manufacturers). They build it in their own factories.

And while lion is smaller and lighter, it is not by that much... i dont see why would it be "performance" as you should be able to get very similar performance from both... NiMh is also more reliable and proven and more affordable to produce.

 

I think Lexus down-rated CT200h MPG so it doesn't steal sales from Prius. That's pure congesture from the initial owner reports.

 

Thanks - I think you're right and they're going for a sporty attitude with this model. I see in the e-brochure that usbseawolf2000 linked, it says that in Sport mode the steering is more immediate, plus "the traction and stability systems are made less intrusive".

Howzabout a mode where the potholes are "made less intrusive"?

Looks like a nice addition to the hybrid family tho...

 

CT200h chief engineer worked on LS600h ($100k). You know it is going to be good!

 

Agree that it seems the CT EPA mpg will be easier to exceed than the Prius one.
In the Euro cycle, the CT is only 5% less fuel efficient than the Prius (comparing same wheel size) and they have a model that is a bit more efficient than the (Euro) Prius.
Could be that with the CT they are aiming to the European market? where the couldn't (until now) reproduce the Prius US and Japan success?

Giora.

 

I was able to see the new Lexus CT200 yesterday at Vista Lexus in Woodland Hills, CA. I think it looks much better in person than the photos I've seen. The one at the LA auto show was an ugly dark gray that didn't do the car justice, and I couldn't see the interior since it was on a turn table. Anyway, I am totally impressed in every way(compared to my 06 Prius).

I didn't have time to drive it, but have driven a couple of new Prius with the bigger engine, so it should be similar, but with even better handling. The reduced mpg ratings (from Prius numbers) don't concern me all that much, since I have retired from my 500 mile a week commute (hurray!). I can live with fewer mpgs, better handling, vastly better interior, but I couldn't see any mpg display or trip computer (without nav.). Its a gimmick, but fun to watch. Also I haul my road bicycle easily in the rear hatch of my Prius, and the Lexus is slightly smaller. I measure 70" in my Prius, with both front seats all the way back, and 65-68" in the Lexus, depending on where the front seals are located. I have a bike rack, but much prefer the ability to stow it inside for several reasons. Anyway, I want to drive one, and I'll probably keep the Prius for my wife, and trade her 18 mpg Outback (96 with 125K miles). My 06 Prius is at 105K, and should be very good for several more years.

Vista Lexus was selling them at sticker, and told me that the horrible events in Japan would cause a 3 week or so dip in deliveries, though several cars are already in transit. They had a red one, $32.8K, and a brown one (!) that I didn't see the price on. The pearl white one was sold (with a $3000 wheel upgrade !), but I liked it the best, with red also a possibility. (I paid $500 over sticker back in 06 for my Prius, with lower gas prices, and no earthquake dramas)

Anyway, I'd like to hear from any other Prius drivers who have driven the new Lexus, and share your observations. As much as I love my Prius, it always has a "rental car" feel to the interior, and is very useful, but kind of unexciting. I think the Lexus does most of what I want in a new car.