Hybrids challenged by regular cars on fuel economy: Washingtonpost.com

All I can say is, when I reach 140 mpg, my thyroid will certainly burst as well!

 

Planetary gears are in the model t. The paice hybrid patent application predates the super car program (and to me a lambo is a supercar not these). Toyota was not allowed in the program, but developed the prius during the program, so your timing of information is totally wrong. Some trying to justify this waste of $1.5B of taxpayer cash and the delay of higher cafe standards (the deal the car makers took to try to build a car they said could not make money) by saying it scared toyota, honda and MITI to their own more moderate program. I don't buy that excuse either. Prius recieved nothing from this program other than the subsidies for hybrids.

If you get it, please youtube it. Its relatively easy to get your mileage up by adding an aftermarket phev kit.

 

My 'timing' is fine. PNGV began in 1993; Toyota was excluded and started independent parallel work that culminated in the road worthy Prius in 1997.

Patents for hybrid work go back at least a 100 years. This picture is from the patent awarded the Belgian Peiper in 1905


The value of PNGV was R&D of a PSD hybrid with battery storage. Sound familiar ? Each of the 'big' 3 in Detroit built prototypes likely based on the brilliant work of Victor Wouk. And unlike the obstructionism Wouk faced from the republican EPA, the PNGV era EPA was gung ho on hybrids, but as soon as the taxpayer money stopped flowing to Detroit they trashed the hybrid program. You may not realize it, but the GM Volt you like to hype has PNGV as a direct ancestor. I know this does not fit your ideological view of history -- tough.

Now if you want to rant about squandering taxpayer money on automotive stupidity, look no further than Bush's 'FreedomCar' boondoggle -- aka GM grant aka the "hydrogen economy" car.

Executive summary:
Absent PNGV Toyota would not have developed Prius;
Absent Prius Detroit would be selling 15 mpg gas guzzlers and begging for subsidy for tomorrow's utopia based on Ethanol and Hydrogen. Oh wait -- never mind. They *still* are, plus or minus a couple thousand cars. Even the foresight of PNGV cannot fix a broken Detroit.

 

PNGV begot Freedom Car. THis is equal party stupidity. At least bush did pass higher cafe standards, that was a clinton campaign promise that gore used to get the agreement of a super car. No partisanship on my side.

here is the precept the highest mpg super car. If you notice it looks nothing like the prius or volt. It is similar to a Honda insight, with a parallel hybrid drive train and extremely small engine and slippery body.
GM Unveils Concept Car That Gets 80 Miles A Gallon

Since you understand supercar did not directly affect the prius, you need to ask if the us didn't flush $1.5B of direct funds and more corporate funds down the toilet what was needed to get it built. The main thing missing from power split was microprocessor based controllers. The MITI funding may have sped it up, but the idea is a natural so no points. Toyota and ford each came up with similar work and each ended up paying paice royalities for its power split microprocessor controlled patent. It is not as if the $1.5B paid for the the 21 patents Toyota cross licensed. Paice patent ends in 2012. Toyota has paid ford money for patents, this is normal, and any payment would have been much lower for toyota's patents than the government funding, but if it was about efficiency instead of government control of corporations mixed with corporate welfare toyota could have joined. hmm.

Since all hybrids account for less than 2.5% of American car sales, it is hard to believe that the big three would have a less efficient fleet absent the prius. It is about as low as they could get away with given the cafe standards. The fleet would have had higher fuel economy if the truck loophole closed and cafe standards raised in 1993 instead of 2006. So absent supercar and freedom car the likely cars driving on American roads would have higher fuel economy. The government sickness with detroit is part of the problem. Supercar extended corporate welfare in a direction that was bad for the American people and the car companies. MITI has done much better but is full of corporate welfare, but your rant belongs in politics. MITI was ahead of congress in giving car companies money for hydrogen. Super car was not super in any ways except in wasting money. Freedom car provided no freedom unless it is freedom from responsible government.

Given the current state of cafe standards, hybrids will grow, but conventional cars will remain a big part of the fleet. A cruze, focus, or elantra get great mileage and slow the growth of hybrids bought for strictly tco measures.

 

Each argument you lose on merits and logic, and you devolve to spin. PNGV did not directly fund the prius, but the existence of PNGV was the reason Toyota developed Prius. They say so in black and white.

And now, crawl back into your ideology based history. I'm finished with this discussion.

 

Toyota never licensed or paid any royalties for Ford hybrid system... Ford licensed and probably paid for royalties for HSD.

Also, Edmunds tested 2012 Ford Focus and both times it got 27 MPG average... is that really hybrid like? I dont think so.

 

Ok, so a Hyundai Elantra GLS 6-sp automatic starts at $17,080, fair enough. claim FE 29/40/33.

Give me one of those to drive around NYC like a taxi driver for a couple days. We'll see what FE it gets. Betcha 25 mpg. But, yeah, $6k is a lot to make up in gas.

 

so far on fuelgov site, new elantra is averaging 28.5 MPG while old ones were averaging 1-2 MPG more!

Just another evidence of adjustment to the new EPA rules as new ones are supposed to be 33 mpg combined and old ones 28.

On the other hand, Corolla with their "old tech" that "should be upgraded" averages 32-33 mpg for old school 4 speed auto and 36-37 mpg for the manual.

lol.

 

Not sure, but I think items labeled on the diagram as #3, 7, 8, 12, 16, 17 might be a cutaway-view drawing of a planetary gear setup (similar to the Power Split Device in the Prius).

 

From the complaining Cruze owners:

Yeah... My Prius! MFD says 45mpg right now after 1200miles of 85mph to 105mph driving up and down mountains with no regard to economy driving. Also had 100lbs+ of cargo in the boot.

http://www.cruzetalk.com/forum/25-s...ng-terrible-mpg-cruze-lt-auto-2.html#post5391

 

I'm not quite sure why you continue to make false statements about my comments, please stop. Most that can read, know you are just making up stuff. In my first comment I told you why it is wrong to credit the supercar program for the prius. Now you are just stating this is the fact, and without $1.5B there would never be any hybrids. This denies history, and gives a world view that has no idea about how technologies emerge.

Some prius history on hybrid versus conventional
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/03/06/8370702/

G21 was timed after learning of the "partnership", but followed ford's suggestion of a moderate 50% increase fast, not 80mpg in a decade. It also did not require a hybrid, nor start toyota's hybrid development.

Management decided to go with the engineers. Toyota used the TRW idea of a PSD using motors and a heat engine. The work was involved in motor control and batteries. Things that had greatly improved by the mid '90s. All the auto companies were doing R&D in hybrid technology even without the "partnership". Marketing people were wrong, and the prius outsold even the most optimistic projections in both Japan and the US.

In 2001, ford decided to use toyota research to develop the FEH. In 2004, Toyota licensed 21 hybrid patents to ford, in exchange for some similar ford patents as well as ford's patents regarding direct injection and diesel. Toyota in the past has paid ford cash for patents but this time traded other patents. Given their histories this licensing deal would have gone through even if ford had no hybrid patents. This directly conflicts with the comment that the super car program providing the patents and technology that ford used. Perhaps super car provided the failing two mode hybrid tech of gm.

I do not think you can compare edmunds mileage to epa. Cars need to be tested when they are driven in the same way. The milage of efficient cars in stop and go is much worse than a full hybrid, but highway mileage is close, especially when hypermiling. This is one of the reasons that hybrids are such a small percentage of the fleet. I am not arguing against hybrids. I am in favor of them and have a gen III prius. I am just passing along the hurdles. I think plugging in their car is one way for hybrids to make more sense to Americans. We have come a long way in producing real gains. In 2001 CR said the prius got only 3mpg more than the echo and cost twice as much. MPG gains are higher and hybrid premium are much lower than those early days.

 

That is a lie. I will not bother to read any more.

-Brad

 

It should be no lie at all, just a mixup of viewpoints. Those of us who can push a Prius north of 60- and 70-mpg under good conditions should have no trouble pushing a Cruze Eco to 50.

I don't have the latest CAFE list handy, but a GenIII is a hair over 70-mpg, and the Cruze must be near 58-CAFE to gets its 42-EPA-highway sticker. Under excellent conditions, I've hit the CAFE numbers on all my modern cars.

The real problem is writers who confuse these best-case results with ordinary everyday driving results.

 

Toyota didnt license Ford hybrid patents, but some unknown diesel patents that to date have not appeared in Toyota diesels. I have little doubt that "cross-patent" PR was just an PR that allowed Ford to save face while paying HSD royalties. After-all we are talking about very important things in HSD such as PSD that has been licensed and even produced by Toyota owned supplier for Ford.


As to the mileage - when you have lab tests, you have ways to improve them. New EPA adjustments that took place in 2009 are now being "improved" on in new cars. Fuelgov.org stats for Elantra show average of 29 mpg for 2012 Elantra that should be gettting "40 mpg" in the ads.

Sames goes for FFH and TCH - official different is quite huge, but owners report on average only 1 mpg difference between the two.

Same fuelgov.org stats show old Toyota Corolla with old 4 speed AT getting 32 MPG, and 36-37 mpg with manual while it should actually be doing worse than Elantra according to EPA.

I trust user reported and mag reported averages a lot more than EPA and European official mpg... I also have no doubt that next gen Toyotas will also have adjustments for new 2009 EPA rules.

 

T

 

Unfortunately, even the Cruze is only achieving average MPG in the 20s to low 30s if they are lucky. This is according to what I've been reading on Cruzetalk.com. I'm sure there are many people getting better MPG out there but I would never call the Cruze a 40mpg car. That would insinuate that the car is capable of getting 40mpg AVERAGE when driven by the average Joe in average situations.

 

I think this means you are in violent agreement to my point, but to clarify. Ford had some pattents in hybrid technology that were cross licensed in the deal, this had more to do with avoiding law suits, than toyota wanting to use them. Ford has never paid HSD royalties, but exchanged these, DI, and diesel patents to use the technology. Ford may have paid NRE to toyota in the design of the FEH, but these documents are not public. The PSD layout is really based on a TRW patent that had expired and toyota used. Toyota licensed 21 patents mainly used for electronics and control. Car companies often use the same suppliers. The parts are all different in ford hybrids, but the technology is the same. The cross licensing only included technology up to 2004, and not the things in the current generation. Nissan and mazda have paid licensing for hsd.

 

This is an interesting thread to read...

Sure the Washington Post article is full of spin. It fails the validity test in the light of some of the casual claims it highlights bodly.

Rest easy Prius faithful. The Prius is still the best vehicle you can commonly purchase to get the best gas mileage possible.

But spin or not. Flat out wrong or not? Why the defensiveness? What "if" magically someone was able to produce a gas powered vehicle that matched or exceeded Hybrid mileage capabilities? Wouldn't that be a good thing?

Most people who want a hybrid, who seriously consider a hybrid, do a minimum of research. I don't feel threatened by a headline saying Hybrids are being "challenged" by regular cars...

If that article by the Washington Post is enough to sway someone from buying a Hybrid..into buying a Chevy Cruze...then IMO they weren't really too serious about owning a Hybrid anyway.

I'm currently NOT owning a Prius, I'm driving a Fit...I average combined about 30 mpg. No where near the lofty efficiency of mileage offered by Prius. What I find depressing is that my 2010 Fit...get's roughly the same MPG's as a 1980's Toyota Tercel my parents owned when I was growing up.

I'm for improvement, advancement...where ever it may genesis. The positive is that headlines like this are now being created. That Hybrids have become viable and tangible enough that they are deemed even chimerically challengeable within the arena of automotive sales and spin.

We've gone in a relatively short time, from a majority not caring about the gas mileage of hybrids, not believing in their long term viability as a product. To the Washington Post taking shots at them in comparison to smartly marketed ICE vehicles...that IMO is a sign that things have changed for the better.

 

The problem with the user reports are bias. My guess is elantra reporters are not happy, while eco cruze and prius report when they are trying to get good milage. The old corolla has a different driver set than the elantra, and with more power the driver might actually use it. As they say YMMV. Mine in the prius averages 42, and it is because of short trips. But my prius greatly underperforms the epa highway on highway trips for me, while my previous lexus beat the old epa by 20% most of the time. Car and Driver got the same mileage in a geo metro as a gen III prius, but it was simply impossible to push the underpowerd metro, so they were accellerating the prius more ;-) That would be a way to make things match up, put 60 hp engines in the econoboxes, but odds are no one would buy them when they can get a 140 hp car for only a little more.

Browse On-the-Road Fuel Economy Data

These guys seem to be getting 35-39 mpg on the eco cruze. Again it is a biased sample. I would not expect the average joe to get 50 in a prius or 33 in a eco cruze.