2011 Prius not coming till Feb/Mar 2011?

Sorry, but you have obviously never actually tested a Prius. If you floor or depress the accelerator pedal more than a little bit, and in either case hold the throttle pedal there, and press the brake, the car puts the engine to idle. THAT IS "brake override" and the Prius has always had it! TRY IT before posting please!

As for the alleged "firmware flaw", it's an internet myth! Prove it's still there or please stop ranting about it!

 

You know, I never tested brake override of our NHW11 and I've got Auto Enginuity that records the data. I'll try to run the test this weekend.

So your expectation is that the test protocol should be:

1. First - wide open throttle. Any particular speeds?
2. Second - while holding wide open accelerator, apply brake. Any particular target speed?

This doesn't make much sense because of the ambiguity of "CR" (compression ratio?). There are two distinct actions:

• compression stroke - the ratio of the manifold pressure to the compression at top dead center. The Atkinson cycle keeps the intake valves open on part of the up stroke to push some of the gas back into the manifold. This means less gas has to drawn against the throttle plate thus minimizing the partial vacuum that pistons have to work against. This is usually call 'pumping loss' and makes the Atkinson cycle more efficient than the Otto cycle in low power regions, the usual operating range of the Prius engine. This delay closing of the intake valves reduce the effective compression ratio closer to 8 to 1.
• power stroke - this is the ratio of hot combusion gas expasion which is mechanically fixed at 13 to 1.

I disagree. The Otto cycle has lower thermodynamic efficiency than the Atkinson cycle. At low power settings, the Atkinson achieves near diesel brake specific horse power, the measure of thermodynamic efficiency. My measurements and the Toyota papers show that to be the case, "Development of New-Generation Hybrid System THS II - Drastic Improvement of Power Performance and Fuel Economy" Muta, Yamazaki, and Tokieda, SAE 2004-01-0064.

BTW, you may want to correct your earlier posting about the '80% reduction since April.' That and other articles report that was April 2010, not April 2006.

Bob Wilson

 

Brake override...

Yes, agreed, the Prius design PREVENTS the use of the gas pedal if the brakes are being used, or in reality if the brake pedal position microswitch indicates the brake pedal is displaced from "neutral".

And if that microswitch fails.....

Where is the failsafe brake override "then".

Or what if the firmware goes WOT due to being "locked" in the cruise control "accel" mode....??

"..alleged "firmware flaw.."

Quite well spelled out in the recall notice, Toyota's OWN documents.

 

"..Compression Stroke.."

With an Atkinson cycle engine MORE "GAS" comes through the RESTRICTIVE throttle plate than is actually needed, required, for the subsequent power stroke. If you're suggesting that the intake manifold becomes pressurized due to the "backward" flow you may wish to note that in a 4 cylinder ICE an "opposite" piston is in perfect "harmony", crank angular position, on an intake stroke.

"..Pumping Loss...Yes, the fact of the throttle plate being more open, higher atmospheric pressure (less manifold vacuum) for an Atkinson engine vs otherwise definitely results in lower pumping losses.

"...Power Stroke.."

Agreed.

"..I disagree.."

Oh, really...? Do you know that most automotive engine design engineers would give their left nut for a breakthrough design, inexpensive and easily implemented design, that allowed an increasing compression ratio cognizant with a lower and lower cylinder "fill" level...??

A mechanical compression ratio of even 20:1 might be a desirable target for simple cruise mode. Or you could start with 15:1 (DFI) for partial A/F mixture "fills", and then incrementally lower, EFFECTIVELY lower, the CR to 12:1 to enter Atkinson mode as the cylinder "fill" level rises at or near WOT.

That appears to be what Toyota is doing with the new RX450h, wide variation in intake valve closing delay in accordance with engine power demands.

Have to go and read the patent...

 

....and I had stupidly idea that this thread was about when the 11's would be released. But instead it's about the Atkinson diet and Otto pops. :focus:

 

Well it's Dec 22, 2010 and nary a word as to exactly when 2011s will be released. The Toyo/Prius website still only has 2010 Prii info.

And, at least in my area (NC), dealers are NOT dropping prices like you might think they would. Nope. They are holding firm. I'm looking for a IV in silver/misty with no options. There's nothing close by, but a dealer just over the border in VA quoted me MSRP minus the factory $1,500 rebate.

Yeah right.

I.don't.think.so.

FAIL!

I'll just wait some more, no hurry.

 

Have you checked with Dianne? She is showing some already, though the location is not convenient for you.

 

Why would a dealer slash prices on a 2011? Around here a 2010 IV's AAA price is $24300 (invoice $26000). A 2011 IV is $26236 (invoice). If you are planning to keep the car for its useful life and if you can find a 2010 that would be a better deal. Any 2011 is not going to be cheaper than the comparable 2010 because Toyota has increased its price, production will be trimmed to meet demand, gas prices are up, and when next year's leases expire those drivers will be in the market.

 

I saw 2011 Prius's at Fremont Toyota an hour ago ... I was surprised.

I looked at the monroney sticker, it was labeled

'2011/1225a' 'Prius Three Model' (this is not '3rd Gen', new label for 2010's Prius III)

Like said before, it will be Prius Two, Four, Five, and I guess One according to edmunds.

It was a non-navigation and the sticker price with delivery charge and the $200 carpet mats was ....

$25,010

They had a accessorized package on the car like nitrogen filled tires, door edge guards, and couple other little things. I recall seeing their asking price of about $24,800

btw, there was about 60 Prius there (it's a Big dealership). I believe most of them are 2010's.

 

Did Toyota by chance change the wheel covers on the 2011 (from the 2010)?

 

Unfortunately, no. They are exactly the same as 2010.

I struggle with the shoes (15" wheels/tires) on the 3rd Gen as well. I don't like the bare 15" wheel. Even the V doesn't seem it should have that low of a profile tire on it. Those are usually reserved for a car with a definite sport aspect and power to match, like a Mazda 3 sport with 168 HP.

I would just like a 205/55 series - 16 inch tire and nice bare hybrid type OEM Toyota alloy on 3rd Gen Prius. I would be willing to take a 1 to 2 MPG hit for that, but I doublt you'd lose 2 MPG's with this combo.
This is the tire / wheel size found on Civic LX, -S, or EX, which are 140 HP cars (close to Prius 134HP) and I think it would look very balanced on the 3rd Gen. I haven't checked the revolutions/mile on that size compared to the 15" tires.
I don't think it's going to happen from Toyota for production and fuel economy reasons probably.

I wouldn't want an OEM set of tires/ wheels laying around the house, so it would be compromise city.

 

They wouldn't. I was referring to the 2010s in my area. Specifically the higher trim models. The prices are not getting slashed from what I can determine--in fact one dealership quoted MSRP minus the $1,500 mfg incentive.

Ummm yeah, thanks but no thanks.

At this point I think they should be asking invoice and be willing to go $2K - $3.5K under invoice to sell the remaining 2010 inventory. I mean we're talking about a car that is already 1 yr depreciated!

 

Figures. Toyota certainly seems to have forgot how to move cars in the USA. Lets keep those Toyotas as boring looking as possible. Granted, gas prices are headed back up again - so the days of being able to buy sub-invoice Prius are likely numbered along with the dealer lots being 'stuffed' full of unsold priuses.

As for wheels, I guess there's always the aftermarket. Other than the added cost, certainly no need to put up with the dorkmobile OEM wheel covers. The pic below is a set of ~$100ea 15" rims (Drag DR34).

 

those must be 17's above. Look nice.



I've got a rental 3rd gen today. I pulled the hubcaps off, and I'll tell ya, it's easy to get to like the 15's more up close. The plastic hubcaps just seem like dirt traps to me - pull them off and the wheels are piggy dirty underneath.

There is the TRD Prius PLUS package coming out in April with special 17's, tires, lowering springs, sway bar and body plastics. That should cost a bundle.

Biggest thing is 3rd gen is immediately comfortable to sit in a drive whereas the 2nd gen for me never has been.

I think I'm going to be a pretty short time 2nd gen owner, but that depends on how a private sale would go. Should be pretty tough to sell a Prius these days, except for cheap, but who the heck wants to do that. There's always trade in, so it's good to know that value.

 

Uhhhh... because there's over 16,500 2010s (slowly dwindling) and 2500 2011s (rapidly climbing) on U.S. dealers' lots today, and except for an 11 replacing a 10, they're identical? Albeit, we didn't define "slash," did we?

Regardless, I venture that for the 3-4 months, precious few 2011s will be sold anywhere close to MSRP. Soon Toyota will be back to flogging leases... maybe the Chinese are also funding their deficit...

(Needless-to-say I'm beating the bushes for one of those slashed-price 2010s )

 

Just noticed 2011's showing up in the online inventories (in MD).

 

We have 2011's in Madison Wisconsin. Only Prius II so far.

 

At Piercey other night, they had maybe 15 2010's, the other 30 were 2011's. They're here!

 

Odd that Toyota still doesn't have the 2011 Prius up on their web site.

 

Shouldn't be long before they have the '11 up. Dealer deliveries of '10s stopped in December, it's only '11's now.

They'll probably do it after they start work after the holidays, like in 2 days or so.

Only difference in 2011's is a slight name change and ~ $250 price increase