CCSE Finishes Initial Two-Month Trial with Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles

What I find impressive is the PHV demo can charge from empty to full in about 3 hours on 110V (I'm assuming on a 15A dedicated ckt.)

I think the low voltage and relatively quick charge time will be a big benefit in daily use.

 

This is what I like about the PHV as well. Still doing research between it and the Leaf...

 

Living With the Chevy Volt: the First 1300 Miles

Using this ^ 19 day Volt trial just for fun, I scaled down the CCSE results to calculate an energy cost comparison.

scale is 1,291 mi. / 3,455 mi. = x;

Prius PHV energy cost = x * 42 gal * ($3.15/gal) + x * 300 kWh * ($.20 / hr) ~ $72

(prices from link above where reviewer said his Volt energy costs added to $99. knocked 20 cents off for Prius gas / regular)

Big difference being an *estimated* 340 kWh consumption on Volt over 1,291 miles while only 300 kWh Prius consumption over 3,455 miles. Could this be accurate?!

 

In the Edmonds review: "Driven the same way, our Prius PHV used 34 percent less gasoline in gasoline-hybrid mode and 41 percent less electricity in EV mode than the Volt.
http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-h...-chevrolet-volt-vs-2010-toyota-prius-phv.html

"EV-mode electricity consumption (*kWh/100 miles) *unlike mpg, smaller is better:
Volt 39.0
Prius PHV 23.2"

 

Thanks, realized my mistake in quoting the amount instead of the rate. But, yeah, the Prius savings is significant. It's not just about saving on gasoline, but total energy used.

 

If we assume PHV Prius gets 50 MPG on HV mode, these PHV Prius had 1,375 miles on EV mode.

Total gasoline used: 3,455 miles / 83 MPG = 41.6 gallons
50 MPG HV mode would cover: 41.6 gallon x 50 MPG = 2,080 miles
Miles drive in EV: 3,455 - 2,080 = 1,375 miles

300 kWh used for 1,375 miles is 21.8 kWh/100 mi.

EPA rated Volt as 36 kWh/100 mi and Leaf as 34 kWh/100 mi.

This is not the same test cycle as EPA but it is indeed real-world number. PHV Prius is about 60% more efficient than Volt or Leaf on electricity. It is making the Volt and the Leaf electricity guzzlers.

 

Remember all the Volt enthusiasts relentlessly bragging about how much better of an electric motor their plug-in would be using?

What an incredible example of "over promise, under deliver".
.

 

Because their definition of 'better' = more powerful (and expensive!), not more efficient.

 

Also remember any device that is 'Real Soon Now' is perfect, only real devices we can use NOW have flaws. If you compare that which is promised with that which exists, you are not comparing apples to apples.
As recently as 12 months ago the Volt was an electric car that got 40 miles on a charge and 230 MPG. It had better areodynamics than a Prius and today none of those claims are true. I will brag about the PHV Prius when owners have them in their possession. (meanwhile the early adopters seem to like the hand built 'mules')

 

Those are pretty impressive numbers - the biggest % increase in mileage of any generation of Prius over the past generation, I believe. Exciting!

Think Gen V will push over the 100 MPG barrier?

 

Good stuff. These are not typical PHEV as some charged at work and not at home. They also probably drove more efficiently than the typical driver as it was a test and brand new. Then again most PHEV drivers will probably drive more efficiently than the average driver.

So what do we have 60% reduction in ghg in california, 68% reduction in gasoline. I'm sure the latter will be the big selling point. Then again the regular prius has a 48% reduction in gasoline and ghg againt their test fleet. What about the volt? If you had the same electric miles you would the volt would have 57% reduction in gasoline versus the comparison fleet, still impressive. But in reality if those volt drivers were charging at work they would use hardly a drop of gas during daily commutes but depending on your numbers ghg would likely be worse than the phv prius.

I think this is a disengenous argument. The phv prius motor must be more efficient, because it is not used as much at the least efficient times, brisk acceleration and normal 65 mph and above highway speeds. The volt could use this trick if there was a software mode for blend, the leaf without the gas engine must only use electricity. But isn't this what having a phev is all about not using gas? I hope when the prius phv comes out they do provide it with an all electric mode.

If the tesla arrangement bears fruit, we can hope the Gen IV will have a long enough electric range that we are using hardly any gas. This will be substituting electricity for the gasoline, but that is the logical path. The prius already has most of the right stuff for this, it just needs a bigger battery, and maybe a more powerful traction motor (mg2) and a clutch.

 

PHV Prius seeks for synergy. It uses electricity when gas is not efficient and vice versa. That's what hybrid is all about. I agree with you that Volt can do the same but it won't. It wants to be "electric car" initially. It is the Volt's "range extender" concept that disallows synergy since it divides the role of when the electric and the gas can operate. It is like politics getting in the way of science. Volt's design is based on ideology but PHV Prius is scientifically / data driven design. The result shows.

Don't confuse between PHV, PHEV and EV. The goal of EV (Leaf) is not to use gas with the range and refueling compromises (for now). EV is simpler and it should require less maintenance.

The goal of PHV (PHV Prius) is to reduce gas consumption without raising emission or total cost of ownership (TCO) vs a comparable HV. PHV can be plugged in and driven in EV under 65 MPH without full acceleration power. EV power is sufficient to merge into highway speed around 55 MPH with 3 adults. It can do short trips in pure EV as well. It is not a limitation but a design driven by goals. The design filters the situations where electric is not efficient and leaves it to the HV mode for the most efficient operation.

The goal of PHEV (Volt) is to reduce gas consumption with initial pure EV miles regardless of emission or TCO. We know Volt's emission and TCO are much higher than a comparable compact hybrid. I am just going to stop there so it doesn't sound like Volt bashing.

 

I think we agree about the facts here, just take very different spins. The volt wants to feel like an electric car and the engineers made some design decisions. I don't think it was ideology, otherwise they would have delayed it when they found they had to turn on "hybrid software" to get some of the performance they wanted.

I'm not confused. PHV is simply toyota's abreviation of the more generic term PHEV, and something they can trademark. I think in the short CARB experiment many found the range limitations of EVs a compromise, and PHEV is IMHO a less compromised option. Given the reports of low maintenance on prius, I find some of nissan's maintenance comparisons unbelievable. I doubt in the real world a phv prius will require significantly more maintenance than a leaf.

The lack of an ev button seems to be a limitation that phv prius testers seemed to dislike. The spwinning of the engine seems like a decission to make it not deviate, instead of a real design decission on the vehicle. Given the new EPA test will likely give the prius 0 EV miles, I expect that when toyota starts shipping the cars to customers the button will be back. It is also doubtful that anyone with short on ramps could safely merge on the highway with the phv prius without firing up the engine. This behavior has also been discussed.

I think you mean than than a prius. If you look at hybrids many will have much higher cost of ownership. Think of the $350/lease, not the sticker price. That is how these are being sold. When ford and hyundai and toyota phevs all arrive in 2012 we should be able to see the results of design decisions. Toyota in the test vehicle seems to have targeted Japanese not American commutes. I still expect it to sell briskly though. I don't expect those leasing volts will have high fuel or maintenance costs at all.

 

"300 kWh used for 1,375 miles is 21.8 kWh/100 mi.
EPA rated Volt as 36 kWh/100 mi and Leaf as 34 kWh/100 mi."

I doubt that every Prius driver kept a kill-a-watt log, so the Prius kwh consumption I suspect is read from the Prius display, and therefore does not include charging losses. The EPA apparently estimates ~ 20% charging losses, making an apples to apples comparion for the Prius at 218/.8 wh/mile = 272.5 wh/mile.

We are not done though yet. The Volt and LEAF wh/mile numbers Dennis posted are based on EPA testing, while the Prius numbers are real-world driving from a self-selected group. Hard to know how closely they drive like the EPA test.

I don't doubt, based on the sorry MPG results of the Volt, that Volt efficiency is less than the Prius. I wouldn't take the above though as proof.

 

Who tested? PHV Prius starts in EV mode so the button is not needed.

 

I was refering to reviews on this site. They are easy to find.

http://priuschat.com/forums/toyota-...hybrid-electric-vehicle-performance-test.html

I think it was estimated that it should be around 30 seconds to 60 in ev mode, if you have the patience and keep your eyes on the hsi. That doesn't sound very practicle. Locking it in to a mode where you need to hit a kick down area of the accellerator would make it much easier. I think one of the moderators went faster than he normally would so that he could save some battery for post freeway. Appropriate buttons and modes would solve this.

 

Well, that would be dangerous. You won't have power when you need it because you are locked in to prevent ICE from kicking in, unless you press a button.

PHV Prius was very practical at local streets. I guess it depends on your expectation. Where I live, there are many local places that I go within 6 miles range.

 

MG1+MG2 would be larger, battery would be stronger to allow drain of amps.
Keep it simple, practical, is the best way of design.

Some, like me, would like the opposite button, allow a lesser HSI demand to kick in ICE, as for "HV". It would allow urban-hwy-urban commute final miles being done exclusively in EV.

 

Are you saying it is easy to stay in ev mode and merge on the highway as per your previous post, but if the driver wants to lock it in because it isn't easy the acceleration will be dangerously slow? That doesn't make a great deal of sense. Some of us have managed to press in the clutch with a foot, and shift with our hands to select the proper mode in a manual transmission. I don't think pressing harder with the foot, or pressing a button with the hand is a very difficult maneuver.

PHV Prius was very practical at local streets. I guess it depends on your expectation. Where I live, there are many local places that I go within 6 miles range.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Certainly most that buy the phv prius or volt won't have hundred mile comutes. TOfcourse you can just look at the japanese marketing materials where they say directly it was designed for japanese comute and market. Or you can decide to continue stating the 37 mpg after 35 miles is a show stopper, but a 0 mile ev range on a texas highway is a design feature.

Keep it as simple as possible but no simpler. Mg1 can actually be smaller in a phv prius, but this would likely also mean different gearing and thus a different design from the gen III. Allowing more of the battery pack to be used seems like an easy design change, and one likely to be taken before production. Fixing the software for american driving also seems like a good change. These things won't be hitting american shores for at least 1.5years, plenty of time to fix parts of the design.

I probably wasn't clear, your desired mode is included in my naritive. Having the standard ev button from the gen III keeps 6 modes, instead of the 4 on the prototypes. Ev off in normal mode, would likely be the mode you would want. The mode I was talking about about would EV-ECO. The current mode would be EV-normal, which you can not switch out of in the prototypes. The reason car companies put out these prototypes are to get feedback, not to crush ideas. IMHO removing the EV button is a bad idea. John and USB as much as they talk seem to just want to validate whatever got thrown out there. Hey give me a clean sheet and I can devise a much better interface, but all I am saying is better software for better driver control makes sense.