Chev Volt vs Prius

Heh, it wasn't that long ago that Volt sites proclaimed the 230mpg as gospel, that the car wasn't anything like a PHEV and anyone who dared to say otherwise was shouted down and their comments hidden or deleted... wait, that was yesterday!

 

One can split hairs, say this is an EV or whatever. To me it seems an awful lot like what most of us have previously called plug-in hybrids.

Regardless of semantics, in the end the important factors are vehicle size, performance, operating costs.

I read up on the $7,500 credit BTW. It expires after 250,000 people use it I think. That's a lot of Volts, but other cars quality for it, too, like the Leaf. So it's not like this credit will be around forever. Probably a few years, though. But then a car like the Volt will have to stand on its own. I wonder how quickly prices will come down.

 

I like what is said in this article:

The mystery surrounding the Chevy Volt. | evtalk

To quote specifically:

Well, GM is totally avoiding the term “hybrid.†I imagine they are doing this to make sure the general public knows this is something more than the typical hybrid on the road. After all, for years other hybrids were advertised as “The electric car you never have to plug in.†And yet, the Chevy Volt requires to be plugged in to take advantage of its 40-mile all-electric range. So GM has decided to classify the vehicle as an EREV, which stands for Extended Range Electric Vehicle. But in all honesty, the car is a hybrid. More specifically, a Plug-in Hybrid or PHEV. GM may not market it as a hybrid, but that is what it is.

 

History is repeating itself

All this talk of 230 MPG, will they use the plug or won't they, etc. reminds me that those that don't remember history are doomed to repeat it.

Prior to the early 1970's, manufacturers could report any fuel economy they wanted. So you could not compare a Ford to a Chevy...they tested differently. The numbers were ambitious, so the one thing you could count on was that you would not get the numbers they advertised.

Then in 1972, the EPA established a standard test, made everyone use it, and made them not advertise any other test data. Now you could compare. This still works to this day (with a few revisions to the test), for cars that run on only one fuel / energy source.

Fast forward to 2010, and we now have cars hitting the market that run on two energy sources (liquid fuel and electricity from the plug). Were back to wacky numbers that noone can make sense of, and no way to compare the two competitors (Prius plugin and Volt).

Someone needs to step up and propose a standard test cycle starting from a full tank and full battery, so we can really see performance on a comparable basis. This will probably eventually be the EPA, but they're usually 5 - 10 years behind the curve on matters such as this.

...or publish two numbers in the meantime, MPG with no net draw from the battery (prius mode) and MPkWh with no ICE operation.

The numbers being thrown around for the volt range from 30 MPG to 230 MPG. This will get us nowhere until Volt's are out there driving around.

 

Well this is what they had to say half a year ago.
Chevy Volt’s 230 MPG Rating Will be Reduced

At the time of the 230mpg anouncement the press all told that it was because of the epa testing which because most of it was within the 40 mile ev range gm was then reporting it would use hardly any gas. I don't see remarks being hidden from the gm-volt fan site. But if you are going for real fan boy sites your really reading the wrong things.

Chevy Volt nabs shaky 230 MPG rating, might not ship in 2010 -- Engadget

As for what GM was saying about their technology and release date at the same time the 230mpg epa claim came about over a year ago, they said many car companies had similar technology and might beat them to market. They were referring to toyota and ford, but toyota also slipped their anticipated phev release.

GM admits Volt doubts - Autocar.co.uk

 

The third state of the system occurs when the battery state of charge drops to a 20 to 25% state of charge, and extended range or charge-sustaining operation commences. There is still a buffer in the battery used to handle the dynamic responses of the vehicle in this mode.
Source

CD mode will start with 80% SOC so it can provide more battery power than when SOC is 20-25%.

The electric motor power curve look similar. See Tesla roadster below. Prius MG2 looks similar as well.

Tesla:


Volt:

 

Sure, the Volt is a plug in hybrid, but not all plug in hybrids are the same. This is part of the problem with the term plug-in hybrid. It covers a rather broad range of possible configurations between the standard hybrid, like a Prius, and a full on EV. Heck, The Honda FCX Clarity is technically a hybrid, since it has a battery pack as well as a fuel cell. Does anyone confuse that with a Prius? No. What, then, would you call an FCX Clarity with a larger, plug-in battery pack? It gets pretty murky, pretty quick.

The Volt and current Plug-in Prius are similar in many ways, but also different in a few meaningful ways that will matter more or less to different people.

1. The Volt has a substantially bigger traction motor. This is important because it means the traction motor in the Volt can supply more of the motive force, more of the time. This becomes an even bigger deal when:

2. The battery pack is larger, and:

3. The inverter is bigger.

The combination of a larger traction motor, inverter, and a larger battery pack mean that the Volt has better EV only performance in terms of acceleration, top speed, and range. That is important enough for some people to be a deciding factor. The plug-in Prius cannot match this performance, because it simply doesn't have beefy enough EV parts. The Prius is an ICE dominant plug-in hybrid. Even though the drivetrains are very similar, the Volt is an electric dominant plug-in hybrid. For some, the better EV performance will be a deciding factor.

What Toyota offer, however, is a much better performance when the ICE is engaged, which is CS mode for the Volt. This pays homage to the years of refinement of the hybrid part of the equation. Parallel, serial, or a combo of both, it makes little practical difference how the energy in the gasoline gets to the wheels. The Prius has better emissions and better fuel efficiency when the ICE is providing the traction energy. For some, this will be a better choice.

However, they are not the same. The drivetrain is similar in overall design, but the implementation is fundamentally different.

If Toyota decided to strap a bigger traction motor, battery, and inverter on the production version of the plug-in Prius, it would likely blow the Volt out of the water in terms of efficiency. However, until that happens, if it ever does, or GM improves the Volt's CS mode, they will be different beasts with slightly different audiences. Some will want the increased EV capability of the Volt, and will be willing to sacrifice the poor ICE performance, while others will prefer the superior hybrid capability of the Prius or current design of the plug-in Prius. Both are reasonable choices.

Choice is good in the marketplace, and as far as I'm concerned, the more vehicles that plug-in the better.

For the record, I am currently deciding between a Prius, PICC hacked Prius, Enginer hacked Prius, or waiting for the Volt or OEM plug-in Prius for my next vehicle, so I'm not being pro-Volt or Pro-Prius by posting this. I'm just pro-truth. It all depends on sorting out one's priorities and researching how each vehicle performs relative to them. At this point, I'm leaning towards a Gen 3 Prius with the PICC conversion (when it comes out), since it seems to give most of the benefits of both, and only sacrifices some EV mode acceleration and top speed that I can probably live with.

 

If you were in business to make money.......

It's also a very tough lesson for GM to have learned in the future because NOW they are behind the 8 ball. Imagine if they hadn't sold, if the government hadn't pressured them. Lets face it, that whole sector WAS before it's time. Unfortunately for us it IS bad.
So now we move forward. We have the Prius and others (Ford, Nissan) that use Toyota's technology which IMHO is superior to what the others have done, we have the Tesla albeit more promise than delivery.... and the Volt (still waiting for dealers to have them).

The one thing I wish is that the manufacturers would simply work together better to develop the EV technology.

EV fits me almost perfectly except for trips and for that I could swap with my wife for a few days or drive my Trans Am (which I do April-Nov). I drive less than 10 miles a day round trip.

I don't hate GM or Toyota. I own both.

Go Figure.

 

Very fair analysis, although I view the cars differently:

Plug-in Prius: blended EV/ICE hybrid with (hopefully!) mainstream pricing that will give 75-150 mpg to a large swath of america.

Volt: Short range EV with ICE backup, corporate bragging rights for a niche vehicle.

 

The 32mpg is at the bottom of the Volt commercial being shown right now on all major tv channels. Pause the commercial next time they show it and read the fine print.

 

Any particular reason you dug up a 3 month old thread and quoted my post, or you're just bored and need something to do?

3 months ago there wasn't nearly as much info as in Dec., not even EPA figures were official.

Way to get off to a bad start.

 

Welcome to PriusChat.
:welcome:

See the Logo on the top of the screen to the left? That phrase below it is an example of "truth in advertising."

I do not know if the real MPG numbers are out for the Volt yet or how they compare and contrast to the Pius----and I'm really not interested, for many reasons including the fact that they really aren't the same car, I'm not interested in buying a Volt, and If I were...I dang sure wouldn't do so now...etc.

If you're interested in buying a Prius (It's a pretty good car!) then there's a lot of information in this forum on the G3.

Good Luck.

Don't let the tone of some of the folks in these hallowed halls scare you off. It's winter. MPGs go down...tempers flare....and all like that.

Good Luck.

 

It's all they have .....

REV

 

GM can go pound sand. Wouldn't be caught dead in one. That failed Bankrupt company got enough of my money(tax dollars).

Craig

 

I do not know, My 2000 Trans Am is the most reliable car I have owned to date.

It's to bad so many people have forgotten about the railroad bailout ect. GM isn't the first, just the most high profile.

I truly believe that if GM had not been bailed out, the consequences would have been worse. I'm not a fan of bailouts but with everything that was at stake then......
IN the end nobody truly knows what would have gone on.

I also am old enough to remember all of the people that said they would never own a Jap can and now look......

The problem is that car manufacturers are to stinking slow to realize what they need to do to make good cars. Even Toyota has fallen into this.

Nobody is perfect. Before you brand me a GM lover, see my sig for the cars I currently have.

I am NOT loyal to any manufacturer.

 

Can I tell Toyota to go pound sand since they took tax breaks to build a Tundra (gas hog anyone?) plant here?

 

The Volt is not a serious short term effort to deal with higher fuel efficiency and lower carbon. The batteries are too expensive to make this concept cost effective. Breakthroughs in battery technology are needed to make electric cars cheaper. Until then, expect hybrids like the Prius to dominate the battery-powered market--through 2015.

 

Once the Volt becomes available in my area and the dealers are will to work on the price a bit I will defiantly consider the Volt to replace my Prius.

 

Of course you can. Furthermore, lots of car makers get incentives to build factories in various states. Big difference between giving incentives and bailing out a defunct company. Bankruptcy court would have taken care of the issue without government intervention.

Craig

 

The Chevy Volt isn't exactly a threat to Priuses, although I think that if GM develops a lower cost sibling to this project then there might be more people that will consider this follow-on model as a replacement for their current ICE-only vehicle...and why would that be a bad thing?

I'm not very surprised to find negative reviews for this car in a Prius forum, but it is in fact a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle. I would expect more of a positive reaction from folks who are interested in developing a more ecological follow-on for vehicles that are currently "made in the USA."

Toyota is currently developing (and developing....and developing...) their own PHEV, and I think that's great.
But if 10,000 to 20,000 middle aged boomers out there buy a $40,000 Volt as their 'play pretty' instead of a $34,000 6.2-liter, 400-plus horsepower, 16-MPG Camaro....then I think that this will also be a good thing. Good for all of us.

Who knows? A whole new generation of kids out there might be dreaming about rolling around in a really cool PHEV (GM, Toyota, or whatever), instead of salivating over getting to drive his dad's (or Mom's) pretty red Corvette.

Just a thought.....