GM lent me a Fuel Cell Chevrolet

Will you bring it to Spokane so I can drive it?

Seriously, I think it's super-cool and utterly impractical, and it's great you get to drive it. Everyone here knows I'm one of PC's biggest GM detractors, but I'd sell out and become a GM booster and post 100% positive things about them if they let me drive a fuel-cell car. Of course, I'd turn against them again when they took it back.

 

That's how a hybrid works and it was my understanding of FCHV as well. This comment threw me off ... "They're coming out with a new one this year that operates more like a hybrid (using the batteries for low speed propulsion power)". If it is behaving like a hybrid already, why would the new one operate more like a hybrid?

Is the OP saying the current version never turn off the FC stack? FC would be on for low speed and even idling?

Or does it mean it will be a plugin FCHV? Use the battery (charged from the wall) for low speed propulsion and turn on FC for high speed?

 

Maybe the early FC vehicles operated like a range extender because the stack was too weak but recent FC stacks are getting powerful. FCHV-adv has 121 hp stack. During the warmup time, when it can only provide partial power, battery will be used to buffer. I was wondering how long does it take for the stack to provide max power.

 

Just fyi, it takes about 60 kwh of electricity to make a kg of hydrogen which has the energy content of about 1 gallon of gasoline. Using these figures they they are assuming around 10 cents a kwh. Depending on method of production and cost of the fuel used to produce the hydrogen prices for a hydrogen at a filling station could vary wildly. Note the weight of gasoline is over 3 times higher than hydrogen to go the same distance in a car. The problem is at current prices hydrogen is much more expensive than gasoline, there is not a filling infrastructure, and the cost of the vehicle is higher. It is interesting technology and I would expect economics will change in the next 10-20 years.

 

What is FCHV-adv... and more importantly... what does 121 hp mean in this situation? Capable of spinning an electric motor for an output of 121 hp? The equivalent HP of the current that the stack is capable of? The important measure here is how much instantaneous current can be extracted... and for how long.

Certainly there is no "maybe" about the "early" FCVs. Every FCV on the road to date (to my knowledge) uses batteries for traction power, and uses the FC stack to keep those batteries charged. None of them uses the energy directly from the FC stack. It will be big news if a FCV makes it onto the street that needs no batteries. Of course there will always need to be SOME sort of storage battery onboard just to wake up all the pumps and valves and fans and stuff to get the FC working. Sure seems like a lot of complication!

 

For a data point on efficiency... my ancient, barn-door shaped EV travels (conservatively) about 3 miles on a kWh from the wall socket. So on the 60 kWh that is needed to make the equivalent of one gallon of gasoline in hydrogen... my Rav4EV travels 180 miles.

 

Yep. The cost of a FCV will probably come down from one million dollars to half a million dollars. :wacko: And H2 will probably only cost 3 or 4 times as much as electricity (per mile driven) once they have an infrastructure in place to deliver it.

But that's okay. The whole point is to distract the public from viable BEVs. And it works: Most people you talk to believe that FCVs are viable. I talked to this woman once: I told her that H2 is an energy carrier, not an energy source, and that there are no H2 deposits you can mine in nature. She replied "You can believe that if you want to..." and went on to assert that there's plenty of H2 in water and all we have to do is take it... for free...

 

and, the H2 is a vehicle with a smaller carbon footprint (cradle to grave) than a prius.

 

So hydrogen costs $6 per kg. You get 60 miles per H2 kg so it'll cost $3 per 30 miles.

That can't beat the Prius that runs on 50 miles per regular gasoline gallon. However, the cost is about the same as highlander hybrid. It beats a gas version Equinox.

 

so hydrogen is basically creating electricity to power batteries. its "portable" in that we can store enough to provide a boosting charge to batteries and it can be refilled quickly (albeit, stations are far and few between). but battery technology is advancing at a steady pace.

if we could get a 400 mile range EV that recharges in 15 minutes, then why bother with hydrogen. unless you live on top of a volcano or a geyser that can be tapped safely, the cost to convert is just too high right now.

 

And the newer ev's will get 4 or 5 miles per kwh. I am just trying to get the numbers out there so people have a data point. I suspect that methanol fcs in lap tops to really develop the tech. IMHO the US and Japanese subsidies to develop the technology has just been wasted.

Honda, Toyota, and GM all are getting government money to develop these vehicles. There is plenty of hydrogen in natural gas and water, but no energy is free. Hydrogen seems to be a government and corporate welfare technology. The US government has recently realised it is not fruitfull and is spending more to subsidize batteries, hybrids, and EVs. Don't get me wrong, whenever government sponsors a technology it usually wastes money and gives it to whoever pays for the vote. The estimates are the honda clarity would cost $300K if produced today. Ballard's goal is to have a 100kw fc cost $3000, this is about the peak power of the prius. It will take some time before we get there though.

 

The difference is energy density. Hydrogen just weighs much less per mile. Another problem with pure ev is all the extra materials for the batteries that are not needed most of the time. Shorter range ev's that have hydrogen, alcohol, or biodiesel to extend the range seems like a solution.

Hydrogen is not ready for prime time, and IMHO the government is wasting a lot of money on it with the boogie man being oil is going to run out and we need something so lets throw money at the stuff my supporters pay for. Ford has given up their program choosing to focus on ev's and plug in hybrids. Maybe without the ag bill we could actually produce alcohol for this extending range fuel that did not have to come from corn. There is a lot of corporate welfare attached to our alternative energy policy. Night time energy costs here are only 6 cents a kwh, so if fuel cell vehicles were as cheap as regular cars hydrogen and gas prices are close to break even. These economics really make a BEV look much better than a fcv or regular hybrid. Iceland is using geothermal energy to produce hydrogen, and other methods such as hydrogen from natural gas, or production of methanol produce much less pollution than similar gasoline or coal to bev scenarios.

 

Exactly - and that's why "hydrogen" and "hoax" fit so well together.

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If that were true, where would the electricity from the stack go during idling?