LA Times: Toyota May Redesign Push-Button Ignition

Currently, with very limited exceptions, in the NA market no models have 'brake override' technology installed; ( brake override, hitting the brake pedal overrides all throttle inputs ).

The Germans have it in most if not all their vehicles; some Chrysler ( ex-Daimler ) models have it installed; one Infiniti has it. Otherwise, Nada.

Toyota will be the first major mass market seller here to install it across the entire product. I'm certain the others already have plans now to follow suit.

 

This is absolutely false. It's another of your over-the-top exaggerations to keep the pot boiling.

The (N)eutral activation takes less then a second, closer to half a second. You didn't think that your never-ending campaign to knock everything about Toyota and the Prius would go without comment did you? Silly wabbit.

 

It is too late to turn back now.

Image the confusion if you experience unintended acceleration. Was that holding down the button for 3 seconds? Or was it multiple pushes? Was that updated in the recall? Do you remember honey?

And how do you train people? This is a hypothetical: "If you have the 2012 Prius or a 2010 Prius with an update, press three times. A 2010 Prius before update, 3 second hold. If you have a 2009 with or without update, hold down for 3 seconds. But if you bought in 2009, you might have a 2010 model year."

I suggest a song to the tune of Tony Orlando and Dawn "Knock three times"

"Oh my darling press three time if your Prius has an update,
Or hold 3 seconds, if the answer is no,
Press 3 times, escape death if you have an update,
If you make a mistake, when you crash you will know."

 

I think that concern is easy to address-- just continue supporting the existing 3-second option along with this new multiple press option in all vehicles. A separate button would be more problematic IMO since no one would remember where it was in an emergency. We don't train for these emergency conditions like in aviation or the military. Everyone knows where the power button is pretty intuitively after owning the vehicle for more than a few weeks.

Cheers,
Ian

 

To defend the average and below average user, Toyota discourages training. Their position might have shifted now.

Page 155 of the manual says, under CAUTION, do not turn the hybrid system off when driving. The power steering and the brake actuator will not operated properly if the hybrid system is not operating.

The average user and below average user, reading this, would probably be discouraged from training because "will not operated properly" is vague. It could mean it won't operate at all, will lock up, or will be dangerous so don't even try it.

It probably should be revised to say something about training ourselves in the event of an emergency and finding a place to do it safely.

50% of the users will be below average.

 

Please reread the LATimes story. The story refers to no decision being made on certain vehicles, including Prius, identified in the Pedal Entrapment Recall of last yr (NHTSA Campaign # 09V388000), not on future production. Can you tell me if Toyota plans to make software mods to Gen2 Prius to provide a brake override as they plan to do with Avalon, Camry and Lexus caught up in this same recall?

 

According to my meeting with the head of technical training and a VP the Camry Hybrid already has that feature. That feature will also be flashed into 2005-2010 Avalon and 2007-2010 Camry in an upcoming TSB. They did mention a reflash of that firmwear may not be avaliable on some older model vehicles. They did not elaborate whether the G2 Prius will have that feature added or not.

 

The Prius has voice command input. Instead of changing the Power button response, we can take a page out of my rock climbing experience. When the voice input system hears you say "Oh f**k, Oh f**k, Oh F**K!" it should kill the power.

As a belayer on a climb, the first "Oh f**k" from the lead climber activates you. On the second "Oh f**k" you start taking in slack. On the third you catch the fall. Generally they get louder and higher pitched with each iteration.

Tom

 

i like it

a red button with a plastic cap covering it just like in fighter jets.

 

deleted

 

rotflma

 

But seriously, it does make sense to have the ignition switch shut off both ways, several taps or one long hold. It also makes sense to have the switches work the same way in all makes and models of vehicles.

On another note, I have a friend who cannot understand why a floor mat would make a vehicle accelerate. He understands trapping the pedal and the trapped pedal keeping the vehicle going at speed, but he is having difficulty understanding the continued acceleration of a vehicle with a pedal covered by a floor mat. He doesn't think the floor mat weighs enough to do this. He thinks there has to be increasing pressure applied to the pedal. This man has a degree mechanical engineering so it's not like he is clueless. Any answers to this??

 

Are you sure? :madgrin:

Tell him to hold the pedal down to the floor for a minute or so to simulate the problem.

On some Toyotas, the mat can get wedged between the pedal and the floor, causing the pedal to be held down all the way. This can only happen if you do not use the hooks provided to hold the mat in place, or if they are not installed properly. This is why Toyota has recalled some cars to modify the pedal and replace the floor mats.

 

I think your friend is thinking the mat is on top of the pedal pushing it down.

There is another situation where the mat is below the pedal. When the pedal is pressed, it goes down and forward. If the mat is thick, there is contact between the bottom of the pedal and the top of the mat. Contact causes friction. Friction prevents the pedal from coming up because the return spring is not strong enough to overcome the friction.

It is like opening a door when a towel is on the ground. The towel wedges under the door and now the door won't close. Of course, in this case the mat and pedal must be in exactly the right place. It is rare. That's why people are not dying left and right. The theory is that if you get it exactly right, in those rare instances, you will get unintended acceleration.

This is just one theory. There is also the software theory, the cruise control theory, the pedal corrosion theory and the driver error theory.

Now, in a panic situation where you can't shut down the engine and you can't shift into neutral (because of bad software or driver ignorance, I'm not here to debate this point), some people may try pressing down harder on the accelerator to see if it will bounce back. Or they are pressing down so hard on the brake already, the car jumps a curb and the foot slips and presses the accelerator. Under the software theory and the cruise control theory, of course, no pressing is necessary.

Another theory is the pedal is not sticking all over the place. Just at the end. The mat is just thick enough to wedge at the end of travel. The corrosion is just corroded at the end where you don't usually go so rust is allowed to build up there. So the one time in 10 years that you put the pedal to the metal, it stays there and you get unintended acceleration. I am making it up but you can see there can be many plausible theories of why the pedal is fully down.

So I think the real answer to your friend is that nobody knows why the pedal is pressed even more and the people who really know are already dead. I provided some easy theories. It is not so hard to envision more.

 

ToyotaFleetMgr, Many thanks for your info. I hope Toyota decides to go ahead and apply this fix to all models involved in the Pedal Entrapment Recall. Yes, it would cost money. Yes, one could argue it's redundant. Yet, in today's environment, Toyota would reap benefits far outweighing the cost. Thanks again.

 

Thank you Rhino. We discussed the things you mentioned as well.

I had a Pontiac Fiero in the 80's. My gas pedal got stuck. I was going about 70. The car did not accelerate, it simply would not decelerate. At the time, I did not think to put the car into neutral to disengage the engine and the transmission. I tried pulling the pedal back up with my foot. Not understanding the mechanism, I did not know why that would not work. Next, I tried to dislodge it by smacking it sharply with my foot. I understood it could make me go faster and still not work. Thankfully, it worked, but I can easily understand how a person could get into worse trouble doing that. I was very lucky. I had a fairly open road, more gas than road, but I wasn't trying to frantically drive around traffic

I brought that car right to the mechanic and he rather nonchalantly stated, "Yeah, it happens." He said the linkage got stuck.

 

He's right...in a way.

The OEM floormat in every car on the road cannot trap the pedal so that it accelerates non-stop. It's too light and it's not stiff enough.

But. Now imagine if there were a 2nd floormat on top of that OEM mat and that 2nd floormat was not secured to the anchors and that 2nd mat slipped forward to trap the pedal. Still not so dangerous, right.

Now imagine that the 2nd floormat was an All weather mat that was up to 2 inches thick, made of stiff rubber and weighed maybe 3 times what the OEM carpetted mats weighed. Now it's like having a cinder block in your footwell resting against the pedal.

THAT'S what the floormat issue is all about. How does the NHTSA and Toyota protect the driving public from doing really stupid things like having loose cinderblocks in the driver's footwell.

 

That's what I was wondering, if the all weather mat was very heavy. I have not seen or handled one, neither has he, so we had no idea. He thought it couldn't be that heavy, but I thought maybe it could be. Thanks for that answer.

 

Yes they are. They're not the thin plastic ones that you can see through. They're up to 2" thick with heavy rubber ridges all through it to capture mud and snow without letting the mess get on the carpet.

Weather Tech is one of the leading suppliers. Look at this site.
WeatherTech Automotive Accessories - Car Mats, Floor Mats, Cargo Liners, Side Window Deflectors and More

When they were still selling them the Lexus/Toyota mats looked somewhat like these but there was a thick mud-trapping rubber edge.

 

I know rubber can be heavier than it looks and these do look very heavy.