Today's WSJ - Toyota says hybrids don't make sense!

i never considered the VW's because their reliability was nearly at the bottom of the scale.

to get comparable (although nothing else compares really for the size) mileage, you had to move to subcompacts, like the Echo or the little Ford and those cars were just a bit too small.

there are some people who were born to take a path that leads to a bit more risk, to be a little different, to be on the forefront of a movement.

then there are also the pragmaticists. the steady, sure, well thought out ordered life decisions.

The Prius has become one of best marriages of those two decision making processes. To drive a Prius, is to be a pioneer but at the same time, its a safe, sane and sensible decision. not many things can claim that as a characteristic

 

He's right. Do the arithmetic yourself. I bought my Prius for its "coolness" factor and because it makes environmental sense, but its HSD system sure as heck isn't going to save enough fuel to recoup the difference in price between itself and, say, a fully loaded Corolla (about 19k) or even a Camry, which is larger inside and out.

For the same reasons (coolness and environmentalism) we recently installed a 5 kw solar array on our roof. We'll be paying more for electricty than our neighbors will for the next 20 years or so, but we'll be cleaner.

 

You are missing something if you're trying to get your facts straight. The Camry is larger than the Prius, both inside and out. The interior dimensions of the Camry are significantly larger side-to-side, but the Prius does edge out the Camry on rear leg room. As for performance, while no one has ever accused the Camry of being a speedster, even the Camry beats the Prius 0-60 by about a full second (despite weighing in about 400 lbs heavier). The price differential for the base models is about $2,000. It would be really difficult to justify a Prius over a Camry on "economic" grounds (where "economic" is used in the sense of "economical"--saving money).

 

It would be interesting, true, kirb. Of course, why we drive Priuses isn't because we get 50 mpg is it? It's because we're leading the way towards the future. It's time for me to stop getting peeved at tire store guys who've never heard of a Prius and do everything that I can to educate people. We're proving to the rest of our country that it can be done with less fuel. And I'm glad that Toyota has allowed us to do so. If I wait for GM to do it, I'll be waiting a lonnnnnnnnng time.

 

Well, thanks for the figures. You will admit, however, that much depends on how much a person drives and on the kind of driving the person does. For someone who drives some 15,000 miles per year (as CR assumes), I would think the more realistic fuel consumption number for comparison would be the "150 mile" trip figure (rather than the "overall" figure) since a good deal of those 15,000 miles will be on highways (unless it's a cab driver). And if you run those numbers, the Prius's advantage declines somewhat.

Also, I checked Toyota's web site to compare the MSRP for a Corolla CE (automatic) and the Prius with the cheapest option package and found a price differential of $7,000. According to your figures (and mine, using CR's "overall" estimate), it would take almost 17 years to make up the difference in cost. According to my alternate figures (using CR's "150 mile trip" estimate), it would take almost 27 years to make up the $7,000 price differential (that's assuming an annual savings of $261: 48 mpg vs 35 mpg , 15,000 miles per year, $2.25/gal.).

 

I admit it, I am addicted to great engineering and good design. To my mind, the Prius fits that profile exactly, and for that I pay the extra $$ over say getting an economy car, like an Echo or something.

This car is a green car, a hybrid and a statement on where your tastes and desires our from a marketing perspective. I'm saying, I appreciate change, and change that's well thought out, slickly designed and advances the state of the art in auto design.

 

Guys I think you are all missing the point of the WSJ article. It is not about saving gas or less pollution, it is about an effort by the non-hybrid manufacturers to slow Prius sales. Notice the article is targeting the Prius.

The same type of propaganda was started against the VW and then the small Japanese cars when they first started to make a dent in the US market. Today Japanese care dominate for safety, reliability and economy. The cost of owning a car is more than the price of gas. It is the cost of repairs, tires, brakes and the amount of depreciation. When you add these other things in the costs come down. The fact is all things being equal the better the gas mileage and the higher the reliability the higher the resale value. It is the resale value that is the biggest hit in owning a car. In this area Prius is tops.

The propaganda campaign is heating up. NITSA is now taking up a complaint by 33 Prius owners about sudden stalls. I have to wonder how many of these stalls were a result of the car running out of gas??

The fact the propaganda campaign has gone into high gear is an indication of how much the big three fear Toyota getting even a bigger share of the US car market. For me with a 1991 Toyota PU since new and now a Prius there will never be anything but Toyotas in my garage. Well not totally true - I have a few Porsche hobby cars but that is to compensate for the lack of work I do on the Toyotas.

Long Live the Prius!!!

 

$2.25!!! the good ole days!!

too bad that doesnt apply around here

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA\";p=\"107819)</div>

I hear you. Around here gas is running about $2.60. However, if you take inflation into account, then you also need to depreciate the future dollars that one is saving, so it comes out roughly the same. This is particularly true since energy prices drive the overall inflation rate to a large extent.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DanP\";p=\"107797)</div>

Well, thanks for the figures. You will admit, however, that much depends on how much a person drives and on the kind of driving the person does. For someone who drives some 15,000 miles per year (as CR assumes), I would think the more realistic fuel consumption number for comparison would be the "150 mile" trip figure (rather than the "overall" figure) since a good deal of those 15,000 miles will be on highways (unless it's a cab driver). And if you run those numbers, the Prius's advantage declines somewhat.

Also, I checked Toyota's web site to compare the MSRP for a Corolla CE (automatic) and the Prius with the cheapest option package and found a price differential of $7,000. According to your figures (and mine, using CR's "overall" estimate), it would take almost 17 years to make up the difference in cost. According to my alternate figures (using CR's "150 mile trip" estimate), it would take almost 27 years to make up the $7,000 price differential (that's assuming an annual savings of $261: 48 mpg vs 35 mpg , 15,000 miles per year, $2.25/gal.).[/b][/quote]

You are entirely right about people's driving habits (why I wrote this assuming they keep the car for longer than the 5 year average and drive 12-15K a year) There are a multitude of ways that we can go back and forth saying if this and if that, because there are so many factors that influence your gas mileage. Take another look at your Corolla example and the numbers look differently if you look at models are comparably equipped (a $5600 difference) and then look at city mileage, the number of years to pay off is much different.

Nevertheless, my point was simply to put the numbers down and say based on some assumptions (average numbers) and other assumptions (not based on averages), people can say money on gas. Bottom line, it is "possible" to save money on gas to buy a Prius, just as it may be "impossible" to save money on gas, it all depends on an individual's situation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(micheal\";p=\"107856)</div>

Point (indeed, all points!) well taken.

 

Does that mean I get more points on my total? It's great that we can focus on treading lightly on the environment with our cars and take joy if our situation allows us to save money. If not, we can still rejoice in driving the coolest overall car on the road (IMO).

 

They missed the biggest reason to get a Prius. You send fewer dollars to the Middle East to fund terrorism and more to Japan to fund further innovation and more cool products.

 

One more reason. Resale value. Depreciation.

"Kelley's data on residual values comes from current vehicle data, market conditions for each vehicle, expectations about the future economy and the combined experience of its editorial staff. The ten cars in the slide show are either luxury cars or vehicles in high demand, such as Toyota Motor's Prius."

"To keep your new car worth its money, buy it in a conservative color, such as black, white or silver. Upscale options add value, so spring for such items as keyless entry, leather surfaces and a premium sound system."

"On the other hand, certain features will deduct value from your car, such as crazy exterior colors and wild aftermarket modifications. But some of the things that give a car a low residual value are out of your hands—for example, whether your car is widely available in rental fleets, whether it has a low perceived value, if it has high maintenance costs or if it has a design that will not age well. "

"The cars in the slide show are all 2005 models and should retain about 50% to 55% of their initial purchase prices after four years."

Top ten cars with best resale value.

The Prius is one of the top 10.

(Now I'm glad I got black. Still okay that I got package 1 instead of 6. When I trade mine in in 5-10 years, maybe then I'll get the high-end package. But will still probably get black. But next time a gray interior.)

I didn't buy a Prius for any single reason.

Fuel economy (gas is now over $2.68 in San Diego and heading higher.)
Low emissions
Cool look
High tech
Hatchback with great cargo and level from bumper to interior cargo floor.
It was about the same size (but taller) as my previous Saturn SC2.
It was an automatic.
It was a four door.
It was about the same money I paid for my Saturn SC2 10 years ago.
I didn't have to wait...test drove it and then bought it off the lot.
It will hold it's value until I sell it in 10 years. (Although I've been considering trading it in earlier if there is a great improvement, but only if it still has the hatchback.)
Low maintenance.

Did I mention it looks really cool?

And I am laughing as I pass the gas stations. I bought in April. My family doesn't think I'm so stupid as to buy "that golf cart car" now.

 

In New York it's hard to get to 45mph and alot of time is spent going 0. The Prius would excel in a city environment, considering that's exactly what it was designed for -- the original 1999 (or 1998?) Prius was designed for Tokyo's crowded environment. It was never designed primarily for people using cruise control at 70mph.

Cab companies would save a hell of a lot of money going with Priuses. And passengers might find electric-only mode to be interesting and fun.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA\";p=\"107819)</div>

Sorry guys, just lucky down here in Texas I guess. It was only around $2.15 until two weeks ago, then jumped 10 cents. Now it is back down to $2.20. Still having a tank over $20 was hard the first time.

 

Over here in the UK, we're already paying $6 per US gallon!

Prius would definitely save money over other cars, were it not for the fact that diesels are cheaper to buy.

Having said that, those living in London can save £5 per day on the congestion charge (Prius and EVs are exempt from the fee), so can save up to £1,000 per year if they commute into the centre most days.

 

looking at that best resale value thing. 2 of the 10 are hybrids. The Prius was listed last so does that mean they were ranked 1st because i would find it inconceivable that they were last since current resale value of my car is still over 100% and i now have 15,000 miles on it. i realize the poll is a guesstimate and is based on resale when vehicles are 4 years old.

i do think the resale bubble for the Prius will not be there in 4years but only if Toyota is selling enough to eliminate the waiting lists and i think that will happen and happen in the next 2 years.