2011 Honda CR-Z Debuts - Another Honda Fail?

How can anyone claim that CR-Z will be a failure w/o even knowing how much it will be priced at?
It is a bit too early, don't you think?

 

Although the Honda Insight does not meet our needs, it is no slouch in mileage:

• 48.1 (11 users), 49.6 (10 users) :: two Honda Insight models
• 49.8 (66 users) :: 2010 Prius

I wear a size 10 1/2, EEE but others wear 9, D. It doesn't mean someone else's shoes are useless ... just they don't fit me.

Bob Wilson

 

Likely depends on gas prices next year. If they shoot up, anything that gets high mileage will sell - no matter how dorky it looks.

 

Joe1347, people who live in dorky glass houses should chill.

 

In the bigger picture, countless gearhead articles have dismissed hybrids and PHEVs over the years - a rush to judgement....do we want to behave like them?

The possible exception might be the Chevy Volt because General Motors has had a notoriously long history of a dozen or so concept vehicles that never reach the showroom like the HiWire and EV1. Maybe a few would make a case Honda is starting to develop it's own history of failed new vehicles, but it still does not approach GM's.

 

Well the sales goal is only 15k units a year so if they can't meet that they really have issues.

The "peoples" car Insight is OUTSOLD by the luxury HS at twice the price. The Insight sales goal was 90k, the Lexus HS is 24k.

Think about that.

Last month over 1900 HS were sold compared to over 1600 Insights.

lol

 

Well, to be fair, a two-seater will always be a niche vehicle, hybrid or not.

I decided to think about it . . . here's what I came up with:

Perhaps last month HS sold more than Insights, but for the year, HS sold 6,699, but Insight sold at least 115,000. Insight debuted in February and began US sales in April, while HS debuted in July with US sales in August. Insight had a 4 month head start in the U.S., but that shouldn't account for the size of the sales gap if HS was really that much more popular.

For reference, I got the sales numbers from:

Newsroom : Toyota Reports December and 2009 Sales / Toyota

"Sales of Honda Insight Hybrid Lethargic in U.S. and Europe, But Strong in Japan" Green Car Advisor

Do I think the Insight is better than the Prius? Nope. I think the Prius is better in a lot of ways. But, just because the Insight isn't as good doesn't mean it is a bad car. My opinion is that, currently, the higher cost of hybrids means it is not on the radar for most lower-income buyers. Lower-income green-minded buyers will probably feel better justified getting a fuel-efficient conventional car like the Fit and pocket the extra thousands at the beginning. Those with higher incomes and are hybrid/green-minded won't hesitate to purchase the better car, the Prius, for a few thousands more. Honda's problem is that the Insight is priced too closely to the Prius II. If it started at around $18,000, its sales numbers would skyrocket.

 

Well said and reasoned, alam99.
I wonder what the street price of the Insight is.

 

I've seen several posts asking why Honda doesn't abandon the IMA system and move to something better, but can they? I thought that Toyota had most of the patents in that area locked up?

 

This is true, but after 20 years you would think that a card that cost much more than the SI did (even with today's money) better than matched fuel economy than its 20+ year predecessor. Yeah I know, "it is heavier because of safety improvments," but so what? I revert to my previous comment, 20+ YEARS!! Honda needs to step up its game....

 

Unless the CR/Z is priced at 10K, it is already dead in the water...

 

Move the motor behind a clutch to the ICE and a second clutch to the transmission. Replace the CVT with an "n" fixed-gear (n=3 or 4.) The mechanical problem is solved. The rest is software.

Bob Wilson

 

Sounds like people are not getting the point of the 6 speed, low end torque peak at 1500 (!!) and the fun to drive factor of the CR-Z. I am not surprised since this is the Prius crowd, a totally different market segment from that of the CR-Z. What's the gripe with the massive front overhang ? The exterior design looks quite interesting, the only exception is the hybrid styled rear.

 

tpfun, I cannot speak for others, but my criticism is that putting in a 'sporty' transmission that leads to poor MPG is a poor decision for a hybrid-sporty car that will have to compete among consumers who care about fuel economy as a hybrid car, and among consumers who want cheap sport and who do not care about fuel economy.

Neither group will want the car. The market group of people who want 'sporty', and are willing to pay up-front so that mpg is say >30 overall, has yet to materialize. And remember, even if the engineering was possible to make a car like this, the 'sporty' driver habits will doom the car to poor MPG anyway, setting up consumer frustration at being 'lied' to.

This is the real lesson from hybrids to date: they shine with drivers willing to adapt to take advantage of hybrid strengths. 'Sporty' drivers are the wrong group to market to.

 

There was enough market for VW to come up with the Golf GTD, Toyota has the Auris D-4D 180, Renault makes a Megane dCi 175, and I am sure there are others. I don't know sales numbers for any of those, but they do exist. Unfortunately, it looks like the CR-Z will be smaller, slower, and have similar mpg.

I'd be one person who wants both "sporty" and fuel efficient. Sporty doesn't need to be fast; the ~110hp that my car offers is enough. What I want is decent handling, feedback, and a feeling of nimbleness. I imagine the CR-Z will meet those criteria, however its size means it won't make it onto my shopping list.

 

The hybrid auto industry would be a boring place if car buyers can be segmented so cleanly into sports and fuel economy categories.

 

Oh well

 

Damn guys 6 pages & no decent pictures showing the beauty of another Honda classic to be's debut? enjoi the pics





ACTUAL JAPANESE PRODUCTION MODEL










http://carview-img02.bmcdn.jp/minkara/photo/000/001/905/659/1905659/p6.jpg[img]
[img]http://carview-img02.bmcdn.jp/minkara/photo/000/001/905/659/1905659/p1.jpg

 

The orange HV battery cable runs too close to the exhaust. It appears to be well shielded.

 

CR-Z Sales Running Well Ahead of Expectations in Japan

"Dealers in Japan have turned in 2,500 orders for the 2011 CR-Z since sales began Feb. 26 - more than twice the company's stated sales goal of 1,000 a monht.

Additionally, Honda had received 4,500 advance orders for the gas-electric hybrid, bringing total orders less than two weeks after sales launched to 7,000 - or almost 60 percent of the total annual target."

"CR-Z Sales Running Well Ahead of Expectations in Japan" Green Car Advisor

Also . . .

"According to Automotive News, back when the CR-Z was being designed to house a traditional gasoline-only drivetrain, Tomobe said he and his team dug deep to come up with a new idea for the car, which ended up being a hybrid drivetrain and a six-speed transmission. But that wasn't until after they had tried to kill the project. Twice. And that didn't stop the president of American Honda Motor from repeatedly telling Japan the U.S. didn't need or want a sporty hybrid, which he thought would confuse customers. Until he drove it, and then all was go."

Report: Honda CR-Z was almost killed twice, U.S. dealers didn't want it — Autoblog Green