1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Federal judge dishes huge blow to cities that mandate all-hybrid taxi fleets for clean air.

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Rybold, Dec 11, 2009.

  1. Rybold

    Rybold globally warmed member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    2,760
    322
    3
    Location:
    Southern California
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    U.S. Federal Judge tells the city of Boston that they can NOT mandate (force) taxi operators to switch to an all-hybrid fleet in the city.

    Judge clarifies ruling saying Boston can’t force taxi industry switch - The Boston Globe

    This ruling certainly sets a precedent for all other cities across the entire country. You can kiss clean air quality good bye. Sort of. Smart taxi operators will realize that if they are on the road 24/7 in a city setting, hybrids make economic sense. Those who protest are those that don't want to spend the capital to replace EXISTING fleets. From an economic stand point, I don't blame them. The law should be rewritten to say "all new, replaced, and newly registered" taxis must be hybrids.
     
  2. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    18,058
    3,075
    7
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    It shouldn't even say that. Writing the law that way presupposes that hybrid technology is necessary and sufficient for good air quality and fuel economy. If that's the target, then write the law with air quality and fuel economy standards. A hybrid tank is still a tank.

    Tom
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,665
    15,663
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    A word of caution, we need to read the original rulings. A newspaper article finds 'low hanging fruit' and this article pretty much quoted the plaintiffs . . . those opposed to hybrids. Often reading the original rulings gives insights that a plaintiff lawyer won't volunteer.

    Then there is the problem of good intentions implemented badly. It happens and without reading the background information, the court rulings, we're flying blind.

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,531
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    Specific to taxi fleets, in the US the market is corrupted by a system that disconnects the person who chooses the vehicle, from the person who pays for fuel. When this is the *same* person, like in BC Canada, hybrids take over for economic reasons.
     
  5. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    11,627
    2,531
    8
    Location:
    Southwest Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    Yep. That, or tax the fuel.
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,665
    15,663
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    GOOD POINT!!

    Let the fare reflect actual fuel costs and the problem is rapidly solved.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. Boo

    Boo Boola Boola Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    5,051
    485
    97
    Location:
    Flushing, NY
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Agreed.

    But even then, unfortunately, such laws might be successfully challenged.

    Last year a federal judge struck down New York City's law setting fuel economy standards for new taxis which essentially only hybrids would meet. The judge reasoned or held that air quality and fuel economy standards were something for the federal government to decide.

    This year Mayor Bloomberg tried tax incentives and tax penalties, and the same judge struck those measures down -- saying that they amounted to the same laws that he had struck down last year.
     
  8. khoult

    khoult New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2005
    20
    0
    0
    Location:
    Lexington, MA
    Maybe if the city just charged for the cab license fee proportional to the amount of fuel used. Then they are simply collecting a "carbon tax". The cab operators can still choose which cars they want, but their wallets may push em towards hybrids.


     
  9. Politburo

    Politburo Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2009
    971
    208
    0
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    Unfortunately, the law in question (49 USC 32919) is broadly worded. It will take a change in the law, IMO.

    http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/49C329.txt
     
  10. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    20,174
    8,353
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2018 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    Premium
    The Supreme court has more than once invalidated both legislation as well as lower court interpretations of the law(s).


    Boo, it seems like these Fed judges are in error, and appeals may follow. After all, weren't the old CARB standards set years ago, much higher than Fed emission standards ... and didn't that issue go before the Fed Supremes? ... Yet due to whatever compelling interest the Supreme court looked at, the Supremes ruled in favor of CA State/CARB's higher standards even though the Fed legislators clearly meant to set (lower) national emission standards.

    I doubt this will be the end of the matter ... rather the beginning.

    .
     
  11. Politburo

    Politburo Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2009
    971
    208
    0
    Vehicle:
    2009 Prius
    CARB won the case because that was explicitly written into the statute. It's a completely different case, legally.

    While overturn is theoretically possible, I wouldn't bet on it. SCOTUS probably won't even take the case unless two appeals circuits reach opposing conclusions.
     
  12. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    20,174
    8,353
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2018 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    Premium
    Not sure what you mean by, "it was written into the law". So maybe you can elaborate ... what was written into what statute?

    Regarding, "CARB won the case" - the automakers were originally the Plaintiffs that sued to enjoin CARB from enforcing higher emission standards (in CA) since the Feds purposed to set lower nation-wide standards. The Supreme Court ultimately (and indirectly) reversed the CARB issue ... not to nitpick. It was via a collateral case in 2007 (549 U.S. 497), Massachusetts v EPA where the Fed supremes gave wider latitude to state emission reg's when the Fed's simply sit on their hands and do nothing to regulate emissions.

    http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/06pdf/05-1120.pdf

    It's not the 1st time, either. I almost think higher courts enjoy 'smacking' the lower courts. Judges get gun shy after a while too ... because judges want to get reappointed / reelected ... & when your superiors go and reverse the lion's share of your dumb decisions you won't get reelected. Don't forget, the makeup of the Fed supremes are essentially of the same mind set as they were back when they granted permission to CARB to set its emission standards. So we'll see. Granted ... as constipated as the judiciary is, it'll take years.
     
  13. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    2,224
    139
    0
    Location:
    Midwest
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Generally state statutes on such things cannot weaken the Federal statutes. However, local jurisdictions frequently enact regulations that exceed Federal or other minimum requirements in other things.

    I'm not an attorney and not familiar with the particular law in question, but the reasoning is suspect. Municipalities generally have some authority to control what types of vehicles are allowed to operate on their streets...even banishing them altogether, plus they grant business licenses so I don't see why they couldn't dictate what vehicles the businesses were allowed to use or where under their licenses. Since the businesses had until 2015 to comply the hardship complaint is bullshit.

    Since the city is not directly controlling emissions, only limitating what specific business classes can use under existing Federal/state emissions statutes I doubt the judge's interpretation.

    Conservatives should be all over this one as a case of Federal "Judicial Activism" overriding local authority. :D
     
  14. Rybold

    Rybold globally warmed member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    2,760
    322
    3
    Location:
    Southern California
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Exactly. I expect the cities to take the Fed to court over this. The voters have a right to say "we don't want polluting vehicles in our city." This is not a civil rights issue. This is an issue of "you cannot possess and operate that dirty machine for commercial purposes in our city" issue.

    If the Fed says you must get 20mpg, then if someone gets below that, they are breaking federal law. But a state can say "if you want to drive your car in OUR state, you must get at least 25mpg," then someone with more than 25mpg is in compliance with both laws, but someone below 25mpg is only in compliance with the federal law. For a state to say "you only have to have 15mpg," the people would still need to have 20mpg to comply with the federal law. The states cannot make a law that nullifies the federal law. They can take the Fed to court, and let the justices decide if the fed law is unjust, but what we are seeing with the medical marijuana is a perfect example. The states are telling the people "it's okay in our city" and then several weeks later, the Fed DEA drives into town, handcuffs the "dealers" and confiscates all of the [federally] illegal contraband. So, the states can make emissions requirements lower than the Fed, but if automakers try to sell cars below the Fed guidelines, the Fed will come knocking on the automakers' doors.

    The citizens (voters) of a state or city have the full right to enact any laws that do not violate people's constitutional rights. This is an issue of "you cannot possess and operate that dirty machine for commercial purposes in our city" issue.
     
  15. fjpod

    fjpod Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    419
    72
    0
    Location:
    New York
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Being from NYC, I wish there were better emission controls on diesel buses and trucks. The particulate matter these throw off is noticeable. NYC has started to operate a large number of hybrid city buses. If nothing else, they do seem quieter. As far as cabs go, the Crown Victoria is starting to lose it's grip. Maybe 20 percent of the fleet are ford Escape hybrids. Another 10 percent are other hybrids. Very few Prius cabs.
     
  16. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    10,664
    567
    0
    Location:
    Adelaide South Australia
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    In Adelaide you can only use a 6 cylinder car as a taxi, how sucky is that?
    Almost the entire taxi fleet here runs on LPG.
     
  17. donee

    donee New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2005
    2,956
    197
    0
    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Hmm,,

    Sounds like the cities need to change their licensing costs based on the grams of CO2 that the car emits. This way there will be a reconnect back to the Taxi owners....
     
  18. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    45,024
    16,242
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    wow... in Asia, they're 4 cylinder LPGs. Granted, the vehicles are smaller too (compact to midsize).

    Crown Vic?? Now how does one of those look like again? :D:p