Clean diesel vs Hybrid research paper complete with sources of info

Don't "talking points" count as "primary sources"????

 

I found that detail in your signature. However, the vehicle clearly is misrepresented by stating the older EPA rating. Why?

42/29 is the old MPG rating.

35/44 is the MPG rating using the updated measurement.

Regardless, that car is much smaller than the 2010 Prius and a manual.
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I'm not accusing Mike of being a troll, and I like cleanMPG just fine myself. So let's stick to my comment, that just 'throwing out a number' is not informative.

Wayne Gerdes posted details of the trip he, Mike, and Jud took in the summer cross country as part of a TDI sportwagon review from whence the ~ 66 mpg figure is coming from.
09 VW Jetta TDI Sportwagen with a stick – Review Blog 05-27 to 06-03 - Page 3 - CleanMPG Forums
Wayne is a stickler for accurate reporting and details, but I could not find any mention of speeds traveled. He did mention though that they FAS'd the car during the trip. For the uninitiated, FAS means they turned off the engine to improve coasting MPG. That alone makes me suspect that this trip was a Wayne hypermiling extravaganza, and about as representative of normal people driving as the Prius 115 mpg marathon.

Feel free to add any more known details.

 

He didn't misrepresent the EPA figures, CMPG does. Its system was built before the new EPA figures were created, and hasn't been fully retrofitted. Instead, they have separate scales for pre- and post-2008 models.

So what's wrong with a manual? Some of us would actually pay extra to get a manual over a traditional auto. I accept the Prius eCVT only because it is an inherent part of Toyota's HSD, not because I like slushboxes over clutches.

 

Isn't that like quoting outdated articles?

2 years to update something so visible is pretty bad.
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Understand I bear you no malice. Others dropped your posting here to provoke a brisk exchange ... a critique. I suspect they suggested you defend your work although sadly, it is dated.

Hopefully you've seen enough to understand the 1.8L 2010 Prius, the ZVW30 model, is different than the 1.5L, 2004-09 Prius, NHW20. In ordinary terms, it is a game changer:

The earlier 1.5L Prius tended to fall off in efficiency above 65 mph. The newer 1.8L Prius has significantly improved, high-speed, performance. One of the reasons is this:


You'll notice there are five pipes on the exhaust manifold, four exhausts and one feeding a heat exchanger. At high power settings, the cooled exhaust is fed into the intake manifold. This reduces the exhaust gas temperature so it won't burn out the catalytic converter. The earlier NHW20 had to enrich the mixture to reduce exhaust gas temperature. Cooled exhaust gas recirculation also helps reduce NO{x} production.

I noticed you're from Oklahoma where I was born, Stillwater. I grew up in Oklahoma City and Atoka. Most of my kin live in and around Stillwater. One thing I remember is how high-speed, long distance travel was the norm.

Bob Wilson

 

Good, I was hoping you would spot the graphic in my signature. I like the control a manual gives and actually prefer it over a CVT. But I know not everyone else does. I know that the 2010 Prius is much larger. I was simply refuting your statement that non-hybrid diesels could not compete with 47.7 lifetime mpg in Minnesota, when I have first-hand experience that tells me that they can. There were no other qualifications for your comparison so my car seemed like a good example to compare.

I'm not trying to spin anything. That's my lifetime average. Is john1701a also spinning his numbers by providing no context to judge? I certainly didn't think he was.

To try to answer your request, environment varies from stop and go city to steady state highway, temperature from -40F to 90F, the only significant fuel economy mod is a ScanGauge II, speed is approximately the speed limit, and trip distances are up to 500 miles. It's probably a 70/30 highway/city mix. This has been accumulated over approximately 50k miles since summer of 2004.

The Sportwagen drive did include a lot of FASing. I don't recall the speeds, but they were between the minimum and maximum. FWIW, a 2010 Prius with a similar passenger and cargo load would give similar results at the speeds we were driving.

 

Considering that the signature block is tailored for the home CMPG crowd, most still drive pre-2008 models, and the wide variety of vehicles there causes them to compete more on % over EPA than on absolute MPG, I don't find it unreasonable. Conversion of their historic database would be much more difficult than on a comparable Prius-only database over here.

His signature block is claiming only 7% over (pre-2008) EPA. This sounds more modest than claiming 28% over 2008-EPA.

 

CleanMPG does have a very good and proficient member who is working on a way to convert the database. Unfortunately, he's only one person and has a lot on his plate. I registered before the 2008 EPA numbers existed and never bothered to update my car's estimated EPA info when the new numbers came out. I guess I could, but I don't think it would benefit me in any way to do so, so will probably just leave it as is.

 

Thanks for adding detail. A few more questions, if you don't mind:

Block heating ?
Garaged car at home and/or work ?
Other cars also driven ?
TDI use the same throughout the year ?

TDI trip with Wayne and friends: I can see from the trip log that the 1000 miles took three days. Can you approximate total driving hours ?

 

And you are making a genuine effort to keep the discussion constructive. However, if you cannot purchase the vehicle anymore due to emission restrictions, the subject is moot. Adding emission controls reduces efficiency. Remember, the goal is to provide a solution for many millions of people per year.
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I agree John but since this is a critique of the OP's paper where he states that buying a used vehicle for $3,000, especially a TDi, is the best route. Mike's post is still applicable. That is why I posted the emissions ratings for the 2010 Prius, the 2010 Jetta TDi Wagon, and a 2000 Jetta Tdi.

Drive Clean

 

I dont have time to read this all over again.

Do you know that a diesel running 100%properly filtered WVO can be carbon neutral? The Prius cant do that.

I already know most of your answers. They will be you cant do that in cold temps.

Actually yes you can. There are commercially available additives that allow you to do it:rockon:

 

There you go with CO2 again. There are many other pollutants than just CO2!

 

WVO elimiates the majority of the other pollutants too actually.

 

Block heating is used in winter. The car is not garaged and is my only vehicle. Summer driving is mostly highway, while winter has a more even mix of city/highway.

From what I remember, the trip down was ~20 hours including stops for fuel, food, and driver swaps. The first fill occurred maybe an hour or two into that trip, and that is where the log starts. The trip back was split up over 2 days and I can't remember our departure and arrival times.

Remember, I was only trying to correct an erroneous statement. I didn't recommend any vehicle for purchase, but if you misunderstood my intention that's ok. Where are the older TDI's not permitted for purchase? My understanding is that they still meet the emissions requirements to be sold as used vehicles in all 50 states.

 

Unfortunately, WVO also will eliminate much of your ability to drive the new 2.0 TDIs with any sort of emissions control, dependability, or cost effectiveness.

 

There are several reasons to question the premise that “clean diesel “ vehicles are environmentally inferior generally to gasoline vehicles just because they are “only†certified T2B5 or ULEV...

1 – According to the EPA’s “Green Vehicle Guideâ€, scores are based on, and only on, “tailpipe†emissions (About the Ratings | Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA - first bullet under â€Air Pollution Scoreâ€). This is but a portion of the emissions that are associated with the operation of a vehicle. This metric doesn’t even take into account the evaporative emissions from the vehicle itself. Diesel vehicles are inherently very low in evaporative emissions because diesel fuel is essentially nonvolatile (see EPA document “Progresss Report on Clean and Efficient Automotive Technologiesâ€, http://www.epa.gov/otaq/reports/adv-tech/420r04002.pdf page 19). There are also significant VOC emissions generated from the production and handling of the fuel itself.

2 – “Clean diesel†vehicles are getting VERY close to SULEV certification. The 2010 MB ML350 BlueTec meets all of the SULEV limits (including NOx) except for NMHC (the BlueTec is certified 0.013 g/mile, SULEV limit is 0.010 g/mi - http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2010/daimler_ldt_a0030380_3d0_u2_diesel.pdf ). A little more tweaking should enable these vehicles to achieve SULEV certification (and earn a partial zero emission credit (PZEV) if these emission levels can be extended to 150K miles since diesels have essentially no evaporative emissions).

3 – There are reasons to believe the Tier 2/LEV II emission regs are not only not ideal from an air quality perspective, they may actually be counter-productive in certain locations (metropolitan areas). The “weekend ozone effect†studies have empirically shown that ambient ozone levels (ozone is the primary constituent of “smogâ€) do not significantly change and in some cases actually increase on weekends when ambient levels of ozone precursors (e.g., NOx, NMHC, CO) are reduced, especially NOx, mainly because of the huge reduction in diesel truck traffic. I am aware of at least a dozen peer-reviewed studies which have documented this phenomenon and concluded that reducing NOx relatively more than NMHC/CO generally has no effect, and may actually increase ozone levels in the worse case. See http://www.altfuels.us/pdf/lawson[1].pdf for a good overall discussion of this. The Tier 2 and LEV II regs mandate relatively larger reductions in NOx emissions than NMHC or CO, which is dubious based other these weekend effect studies.

Certainly the 2010 Prius is exceptionally low in emissions, even from a lifecycle perspective, and I’m not in any way suggesting otherwise. However, rejecting diesel vehicles based on their emission performance is unwarranted in my opinion.

 

I see one big problem with this analysis. That is the fact that I was quoted $29,000 for a new, 2010, VW TDI Sportwagon. That is $2500 above MSRP - the dealer demanded, and the salesman said they were getting, this premium regularly. I even made a serious offer on a 2009 loaner that had been in service for 6 months and had 6000 miles on it. The dealer's bottom line was $25,400!! I got my 2010 Prius III for $24,000 including taxes. So, my simple contention is that the Prius is cheaper to buy and to run. Can anyone out there refute this? Anyone bought a new Jetta TDI for under $25k??

 

But emissions are getting better, right?



Never mind

Yes ... but it's 'sensitive' to call it sensitive too. One can be more neutral by saying both sides are pasionate in their view / knowledge base. Btw ... what do the tdi folks think about sales volume now that months & months have gone by since the 'better' / 'cleaner' tdi has been released ... as has the Gen III Prius. How does the 'other side' reconcile the huge difference in sales volume ... are folks just 'guessing' the Prius is a better deal over all? Why are so many willing to 'pay more' ... if the tdi is in fact such a big deal? Joking aside (for a brief moment I admit) I AM asking the ? in sincerity.

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