Clean diesel vs Hybrid research paper complete with sources of info

Im just trying to state my opinion without pressing it on to others that may disagree, you guys are very sensitive over here.:boink:

 

Ryan,

When you introduced your paper on the other forum you wrote, "This
is a paper I had to write in school on why to drive a diesel over a
hybrid..." It would then appear that to achieve that goal it wasn't
necessary to wholly objective. OK, so be it. You achieved your goal at
the time, a good grade.

I note that it wasn't you who posted your paper here. It seems to me
that the posting takes your paper out of its original context. To that
end you have been ill-served by the poster. Now that the "Who let the
dogs out?" chaos of the last 24 hrs subsided, you paper is getting a
thorough -- but not necessarily friendly -- going over. You didn't write
it for this kind of scrutiny.

You'll have to look to those who were supposedly acting on your behalf
to address any unfairness.

Meanwhile, you've shown that you're no stranger to doing research. So
why not use either of our search functions to look into the many prior
threads where the essential diesel/hybrid issue has been thoroughly
discussed -- the high rise/lifted pickp vs. the Prius pseudo-issue is
emotionalism pure and simple and, IMHO, not worth pursuing.

 

Viking, I would be interested in any response you have to the points that have been raised.
Jay layed out some excellent counterpoints. To further the discussion, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on those.

 

Why is it emotionalism? I am not thrashing, just asking a question. If I off-road, and use my truck to tow heavy loads, then why is "emotionalism" that I drive a slightly lifted (only 3" lift) diesel 3/4 ton truck? That is factual need. I can't use a hybrid or small vehicle for what I do.

 

I am not either but to go further on F8L's points, let's ignore greenhouse gas emissions and CO2 for a minute which the EPA did not classify as a pollutant until recently and look at things are known pollutants and have no little or no relationship to global warming.

See http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/detailedchart.pdf and page 6 for definitions. One can read up in more detail about many of these pollutants and their effects at http://www.epa.gov/air/airpollutants.html.

Then lookup the air pollution score (nothing to do w/greenhouse gases) for a few vehicles at Fuel Economy. Unfortunately, your Ford F-350 is not considered a "light duty" vehicle and I believe its GVWR is >8500 lbs. so ratings seem unavailable as it was exempt from fuel economy testing.

One can also go to Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA and lookup vehicles like the 2010 Prius which has these states:
Emissions Certification Standard: LEV-II SULEV
Standards (grams per mile)
NOx 0.02
CO 1.0
NMOG 0.01
PM 0.01
Smog-forming Pollution (pounds per year) 0.99
Greenhouse Gases Emitted: (tons per year) 2.97 [this is a function of fuel consumption]

I'm unable to find a diesel F-350 (diesels are generally FAR worse than gasoline engines in terms of pollution), but here's the stats when looking up a Maine 2000 Ford F-350 w/the smallest gasoline engine. (This is when emissions standards were a lot more lax than now.)
Emissions Certification Standard: LEV
Standards (grams per mile)
NOx 0.9
CO 7.3
NMOG 0.28
PM 0.12
Smog-forming Pollution: (pounds per year) 39.02

Notice how many times each of these numbers is higher than the very low emission Prius?

 

Names Ryan BTW.

I know not what to say in response. I am the one person in here so far that truly does let everyone have their opinion with out bashing. I do agree with some and not with others. The point is that I am automatically the bad guy because its my paper in the first place. I am at a point where I will not be taken seriously.

 

I don't think he meant so much that the choice of a hybrid or truck is an emotional one. I think he meant more that most of the time those discussions tend to lead to ad hominen attacks and purely emotionallly based arguments.

I, and most people on this board would agree with you. If you need to tow stuff, haul large loads or such you should buy a vehicle that can do that.
As I don't need to tow stuff, or haul anything that heavy or large, I drive a Prius, as it does everything I need.

 

Pleasure to meet you Ryan

It is not your opinion that people have an issue with.
It is the supposed facts that you seem to base those opinions on. As many of the facts appear wrong, it may be that you would change your opinion if it is indeed based on the information in your article.
If your opinion is not based on the information in your article, that is fine too

 

You're making assumptions/implying that raw materials and parts in non-hybrids and/or North American made vehicles (destined for NA) don't go through long circuitous routes. See http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii...osit-2010-prius-8-month-ago-3.html#post835196 and National Geographic Channel - Human Footprint - Our Driving Imprint. I also noticed you decided to include/quote the CNW junk science.

The term "clean diesel" and giving vehicles like "Green Car of the Year" is greenwashing at best. The author should've looked up the air pollution scores (and what the ratings and standards correspond to) and greenhouse gas emissions of the VW Jetta TDI vs. a Prius at places like Green Vehicle Guide | US EPA and Fuel Economy to see that the Jetta TDI is NOT clean (from an air pollution point of view) compared to a vast majority of currently sold gasoline powered vehicles. All those gasoline powered vehicles (by extension/going by their logic) ought to be given the "clean gasoline" label or something to that effect.

Going by greenhouse gas emissions and crude oil consumption, one can see that that Side-by-Side Comparison, a 2010 VW Jetta TDI is estimated to emit 6.2 tons of greenhouse gases/year and consume 11.6 barrels of oil/year vs. 3.7 tons and 6.9 barrels respectively for a 2010 Prius.

Agreed about the earlier points made that it's baloney to compare a Touring model Prius to a Jetta TDI. One should be comparing base models. Currently per toyota.com and vw.com, the 2010 Prius starts at $22,400 and the Jetta TDI starts at $22,660.

Your HV battery warranty figures are also wrong. The HV battery in the Prius, Altima Hybrid, Insight, HCH and possibly more is warranted for 10 year/150K miles in CARB states such as California. (I believe that the CARB states are California, New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, Oregon, Rhode Island, Maine and New Jersey.)

 

My personal opinions are not necessarily based fully on what I have written in the paper.

As anyone from my home forum will tell I happen to be very happy with my Hybrids for what my wife and I use them for. Travailing, errands and long trips, ECT.

But, and this is my opinion, the links and sources that I used are repuitable and do provide an unbiased opinion. Thats what I think. Now and I am not saying you, but many on here and this is undenyiable feel that because the links do not show their opinion then they are false and un just.

 

Nonsense, Ryan.
Your arguments were rebutted rationally, logically, and with supporting evidence by chogan.

You are only being asked to respond in kind. Btw, the english was well written -- certainly a good start. However, as a critical analysis I also found your article wanting. At the outset you seemed to lay down the rules of trying to evaluate the cars 'green' cred. Superficially then, arguments over cost do not belong unless you first quantitate the value of green.

Second, as mentioned by others, you ignored pollutants other than CO2.

Third, Even in regards to CO2, you didn't mention basic facts such as diesel fuel's higher CO2 content, or differences in city/highway MPG.

Fourth, you didn't mention differences in reliability. (I'll let you slide here; it is very difficult if not impossible to gain the data needed for analysis here.)
----
What you did do, though, is trawl the internet for information that shows that hybrids are not panaceas for everything that ails humanity. You should have come here and saved time, since all of us could have told you that!

In my opinion, a balanced analysis would have broken down the comparison into green compartments:

• cradle to grave CO2
• cradle to grave particulates, and oxides of sulfur and nitrogen
• Manufacturing pollution not included in above
• Disposal pollution at end-of-life

I don't think you are ignorantly hybrid bashing, or I'd just ignore you. I do think, however, that your article is more a poorly researched rant against the perceived public bias in favor of hybrids over diesels than an analysis.

 

The whole cost thing breaks down totally when you compare such an expensive Prius Vs the diesel even though the Prius package II and III stack up just as well. You added more then $4000 to the cost of the Prius unnecessarily and unfairly and it distorts your entire argument.

 

Many of us are well aware of the arguments, misinformation, random anti-hybrid stuff in the press, the usual anti-hybrid myths, pro-diesel arguments from fanboys, etc. and haven't sat on our laurels when it's come our way.

 

Really? This is what I find on Edmunds.com today:

2010 Volkswagen Jetta
TDI 4dr Sedan (2.0L 4cyl Turbodiesel 6M) MSRP
National Base Price (excludes destination charge) $22,660

2010 Toyota Prius
II 4dr Hatchback (1.8L 4cyl gas/electric hybrid CVT) MSRP
National Base Price (excludes destination charge) $22,400

I don't know what the Jetta price was when the paper was written (July 10, 2009), but the Prius price was $400 lower than today. Edmunds' TCOSM may not have been updated since MY2009, but Ryan is capable of adjusting that himself.

 

Please see the EPA site for detail info on air pollution

Agricultural losses can be due to:

• Acidification of soils (sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide)
• Invasion of weedy species due to localized nitrogen deposition
• Smog and/or ozone induced biomass losses
• Reduced solar insolation (reduced photosyntheic capacity) due to aersols and soot blocking sunlight
• Loss of labor due to laborer sickness
• Water costs due to reduce precipitation caused by aersols and airborn particulates acting as condensation nuclei

This also applies to forests as well because they are under the agricultural umbrella and we've all heard about acid rain issues.

This is an easy to read chart that breaks down some of the common issues: Environmental Externalities of Transportation

Have a look at this site to determine how "clean a car is". It sperates the cars into two categories so you can judge them on global warming greenhouse gases and smog forming emissions. Have a look at the 2009 Ford F350. The smog rating is under 1 (out of 10). The Jetta TDi is 5 (out of 10). This is not a slam on those vehicles as I actually like them. But the reality is they can be quite dirty.

DriveClean.ca.gov

 

If you truely wanted to be taken seriously you should not have posted on your diesel forum and urged 12 of your buddies to register on this site and play their little worldview games IMO. You went about the whole thing wrong.

 

I am so glad you were paying attention enough to notice that I didnt even post it and was told later by them.

 

I didn't bother checking. I knew who you guys where the moment I read your first thread. I've been on more than a fair share of racing and performance sites for over a decade. This ain't my first rodeo and you're not the first group of "enthusiasts" to get all jazzed up and go to another website to stir shit. You should see the Mustang and LS1/LT1 boys go at it. I'll leave it at that as I have no interest in arguing intent. It is obvious enough.

 

Got ya, misunderstood what he was going at there!

 

So if you didn't post it, then what paper was in this now-missing thread?