Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats-LA TIMES

BMW is developing 'smart' pedals for these types of situations. Toyota itself has said that it may also begin employing this solution.

As noted previously a link between ICE power and the brake pedal seems the surest way IMO to ensure that people 'do the right thing' in an emergency. All of us intuitively hit the brakes if we sense that we must stop in an emergency, this is what we're used to doing. Keeping things intuitive and well known is important in panic situations.

 

today i stepped on the gas and held the gearshift all the way to the left for 3 seconds.


it went into neutral and the engine slowed down.


thats all

 

FWIW, maybe it's because of what I do for a living or something, but when I got the car, I read the manual, saw the entry about taking three seconds to shut down and tried and demonstrated it to my wife, who doesn't read the manual. I did not do it at full throttle, just at a 45 MPH cruise.
Non event, after three sec. the car shuts down, brakes work fine and it may have even kept the power steering, I don't remember. Like running out of gas in this car, a complete non event.
I am in Indonesia now so I cannot try, but I am sure that the brakes will hold the cars speed for the three sec. it takes to shutdown the engine.
I don't think ANY car's brakes will bring the car to a complete stop, at full throttle and at highway speed.
I hate to say it, but the obvious problem is the operator of the vehicle was not trained to operate the vehicle.
Funny how we would think it insane someone would fly an aircraft without training, but think it completly normal that no training should be required to operate any vehicle, just get in it and drive.
No, some lawyers will make a lot of money out of this, and the rest of us will have to live with some big stickers like the ones warning you about the airbags on every visor now.

 

I did the same. But then I'm a pilot too.

Tom

 

I also have tried "N" at speed, and it works as advertised.

A few days ago, while on a secondary street at about 35 MPH, I accidentally pressed the Park button while feeling for the Auto Climate button, the car simply went to "N". Put the gearshift in "D", and all was well.

David (aka Blind Guy)

 

Why isn't power to the wheels cut at that brake pressure point where the power to the wheels is cut when stationary? Wouldn't that be a good backup? Then when you are doing a 2 footed hill start the power would come on just before your foot came off the brake, not all the way off. Of course there is always the park brake like they taught you in driver's ed.

 

Did you know that if your press the Power button while moving at speed - even just briefly - the car goes into N as well. (Same as pressing P button)

I did this once by mistake in my Gen 2, not tried in Gen 3

 

Good info ....

The Lexus ES350 involved in the crash has mechanical shift linkage. You put the shifter into neutral and the transmission is in neutral. Put it into Park (if pushing the brake down or force it) and it goes into park.

Sounds like unfamiliarity with the shifter on the ES350 contributed to him not being able to "find" Neutral and overheated brakes resulted in a loss of control. the NHTSB has been looking at this issue -- and if they thought there was a real issue with the control systems on these cars, they would be forcing a massive recall now.

People have been crashing from stuck accelerators since cars were first on the road. It's the human condition to panic and loose logic especially if untrained for such conditions.

It's like people letting go of the brake pedal when ABS kicks in because they aren't familliar or even know how ABS works or acts.

People need to be better trained to use a car. It's too easy to get a license in the US. You have to wonder why these problems don't seem prevalent in Europe? It's because people are better trained to operate a motor vehicle, especially in emergencies.

 

I entirely agree with your first paragraph above ... I actually TRIED to get my floormat to interfere with the "Go Pedal" while in the garage here at home, and simply could NOT do so!

And that was NOT with me positioned in the driver's seat; it was with me on my knees outside / on the garage floor and reaching into the car with both arms / hands ... trying to get the thing unhooked -- that took way more than a minute! -- and then trying to get it to slide forward. Long before floor mat interfered with the "Go Pedal", the foot rest -- for the left foot -- got in the way and did not permit any additional, forward sliding.

As for the testing ... I've just read bwilson4web's post on a previous page and intend to follow his advice; just a very slow "emergency stop" -- 20 to 25 mph -- in a large vacant parking lot to see what happens when the Power button is depressed and held while driving.

These may not be valid, legitimate or scientific tests for "investigative purposes" as you alluded to above since most of us here drive Prii ... but such tests would help assure other Prius owners how a Prius responds under such circumstances.

 

put your Prius (or lexus with sks) in neutral. Stomp the pedal, and see what happens ... then come back with the results
(hint: virtually nothing)

Edit:
when the prior thread was running its course, it was brought up that autos/trucks have had stuck throttle cables, gas pedals, etc on conventional ICE vehicles on all models since the car hit the first roads. Folks, it's been going on for over a half dozen decades. We just know more about what's going on modernly.

.

 

Listen perhaps that's the problem. You are looking at this as an engineer. Engineers, no offense, told us the Titanic was unsinkable. I think your observations and viewpoint is 100% needed and valid. But I think it dangerous and inappropriate to conclude that nothing needs to be done, or nothing needs to be changed before any results from an investigation are returned.

I think the worst thing Toyota could do would be approach this as simply a PR problem. Even if the ultimate conclusion becomes that this tragedy was born out of something as utilitarianly as simple as the wrong mats, or mats not attached properly.

Simply, the reality is, uninttended acceleration did happen. Also, you had a driver that did not know how, or couldn't react properly to this event. So what is wrong with investigating ways to ensure this happening never happens again?

Worst case scenario it becomes "over engineering". Worst case, floormats are too attached. Or there becomes a button that 99.% of the owners of an automobile NEVER have to use.

It's dangerous to look at the aftermath of a tragedy and conclude that it simply shouldn't of happened...because it shouldn't of happened.

I can't even begin to imagine the panic of being in a run-away vehicle with my entire family. In that situation are the majority of people thinking about 3 second delays, Neutral? Cutting speed by rubbing a divider? Maybe they should, but how can I judge them if it doesn't occur to them during the events?

Really, you could look at the sinking of The Titanic and say, oh, it was the safest ship on the waters, the iceberg warnings weren't heeded, the outlooks didn't have binoculars and all those statements would be true, but the reality would be the ship still sank and people died. Would you not advocate for changes? Would you not still want mandatory enforcement of a minimum amount of lifeboats available for ships?

It very well may be that there is nothing fundamentally wrong with The Prius, The Lexus or any other Toyota vehicle. I really don't think there is, but that doesn't mean we haven't witnessed a tragedy and Toyota doesn't have the opportunity to make sure that this tragedy becomes something that could never duplicate.

The worst thing to do would be to conclude that it was all the fault of operator error and simply walk away from the reality and define it as a PR Problem.

 

There are so many other things that are not being given enough importance in these issues either. The HP that people "want" on their vehicle far exceed what is needed or safe. When you design and sell a vehicle to drive in excess of 100mph do not be surprised when high speed accidents happen.
Many people don't bother to read their manuals fully cause they "think they know" vehicles d/t their experiences but every car is different. The wife or whoever was sitting in the front could have manipulated the Start Button or the gear shift while the driver controlled the wheel.
Toyota is forthcoming in dealing with something which is a rare situation (consider less than 10 incidents in the number of Toyotas on the roads). Our Chevy Malibu was pretty but would shut down anywhere cause ice/water was constantly getting into the fuel line, my Ford Sport Trac went in for multiple recalls including the ignition that could start a fire. I still feel much safer in my Prius, I keep my speed within the posted limits and I read my manual. Additionally I know that I am driving a computer, that being said when you HAVE to shut down a PC, you hold the button down till it shuts down.

 

Quibble: it's not a vacuum booster, it accumulates brake fluid at high pressure and is the only source of brake cylinder pressure. It doesn't matter how hard the driver is pressing the pedal in the Prius (2G and 3G), it's only an input to the Skid Control ECU. Once the maximum recordable pressure is reached, the computer can't brake any harder. Of course, it's quite likely that in a regular car without ABS, you'd already have locked your wheels so the Prius is already managing the brake pressure on each wheel to prevent locking.

This was considered to be a bug, that was fixed. The three-second hold is required in every car that had the fix.

"There is a recall for a software update to prevent the car from shutting down if the driver foolishly presses the power button while driving on the freeway. (It's actually not that hard to do while reaching for the stereo). Funny, Toyota never came out and said the "stalling" was caused by driver's pressing the power button, but I've tested this theory by first pressing the power while driving, and observing the "stall". Then trying the same thing on the same Prius after the recall was done, and observing the power would not shut off until the car was stationary. Instead of saying "driver error" Toyota made a nebulous comment about program logic to allowing a the vehicle to enter a fail safe mode. They're taking the high road I guess."

-- from Art's Automotive wants to maintain and repair your hybrid!.

Toyota likely got the idea from the ATX standard in computers, introduced in 1995. This is where the PC's power button changed from a physical toggle switch to a momentary switch that simply sends a signal to the power supply. It allows you to select what that switch does, the idea being that people would normally configure sleep mode. If the OS stops responding, though, you can't shut the computer down. So there's a force-off mode triggered by holding the power button down for about four seconds.

Since I'm a computer nerd, this power down on the Prius seemed completely logical to me.

 

Any sources for this?

I'm finding the 'unsinkable' claims deriving from statements in press articles, a trade magazine, advertising, and comments from the Captain and a VP of the shipping line. And of course, the public pays almost no attention to the weasel word qualifiers such as 'practically' or 'nearly'.

 

fuzzy1,

I am a engineer by profession. I am with you on this one.
Engineers may have big ego, but they rarely dare to claim "mine is the best" in public.
It is more likely the marketing guys who are not shy of making claims ...

 

So does anyone know the reason for the problem? Is is safe to say it's something other than the floor mat getting stuck next to the gas pedal?

 

The $1M question, especially since it happens across manufacturers (NHTSA report referenced earlier), involves electronic hardware, software and firmware. The very short possibility list is software/firmware bug based on right set of conditions/inputs, EMI, ESD, locked TPS position. To pin it down to some degree of certainty would require repeatably being able to reproduce the condition (not likely), looking across manufacturers for a potential common denominator, and/or testing every possible condition in the software/firmware (prohibitively expensive, if possible).

I realize this is a non-answer, but the more complex the systems, the more complex the problems. Just with many other risks (driving is one), sometimes the best you can do is understand what to do in the case the risk becomes an issue.

 

Not true, check the circuit diagram again. You can remove the battery from a Prius, pump the brake until there is no pressure in the accumulator and the brakes will still work but you will need considerable pressure on the pedal to stop it. Anything else wouldn't comply with vehicle standards.

http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/cours-section6.pdf thanks to Hobbit.

 

Silver Bullitt,

Considering there are several obvious ways that the supposed cause of the crash could have been prevented, he apparently didn't do what he should have to avoid a crash. Whether or not it was all he was capable of coming up with is a separate matter. Is there some sort of list of what all he tried and some sort of log of how he did it? Failing that his supporters are probably more guilty of second guessing than those of us who have been skeptical of this whole affair from the start.

How the heck could he or his passengers be unable to remove a floormat/otherwise check the pedal? Whether or not his friends/family find the second guessing disheartening doesn't really matter with respect to getting to the heart of the issue. It does not appear that he did all he could. If the preliminary investigation has already revealed a problem with the mat, why couldn't the driver figure that out? It's not rocket science and many of us have experienced various issues with pedal obstruction/failure without driving our cars off a cliff at 120 mph.

I've been in vehicles twice where the throttle cable failed. It is the opposite problem but in both cases we diagnosed the problem in seconds and responded accordingly. Once I was passenger when the cable snapped at the firewall. Once I was the driver when the grommet at the pedal failed, releasing the end of the cable.

I've also been through an episode of locked open throttle when it was impossible to shift yet I worked through the problem...that as a novice kid who had his license a very short time when it happened.

I don't disagree with suggestions here about making the ignition off while running more obvious in future models. The interface is not intuitive in some regards, even to PC builders. I've forgotten about holding the button down to shutdown a hung PC before...

Anybody else remember the 70's era GM's that had some problems with the cruise control and speedometer takeoff? The cruise would go nuts and send you hurtling forward like some crazed amusement park ride, really fun in a 6.6 liter Trans Am! (Related story, friend of mine's mom mistook the tach for the speedo...oh was she flying and complained about not being able to get it up to highway speed.)

 

I stand corrected. With research you are quite correct I can find no evidence that any engineer actually claimed The Titanic was unsinkable.

However, statements from trade magazines, advertising and comments from the Captain and a VP allude to the idea that The Titanic was designed as near as possible to be unsinkable. I think one can read "engineered" to be unsinkable.

By a little research, I mean Snopes. But it does appear that claims about Titanics unsinkability became more popular after her unfortunate sinking, that a mythology grew around that idea and concept born out of some advertising claims.

In anycase, if there is a group you don't want to upset it's Engineers.