Despite the Synthetic Oil requirement, 5000 mile change intervals are still "required"

I was told by a Dutch person that the recommended oil interval for her car is 15000 km about 10000 miles or twice the 5k interval. They are perhaps less likely to sue in the Netherlands unless you have a better explanation for this difference?

 

Old habits die hard?

The 15000 km oil change is the rule here in Europe, not only for the Netherlands. Some car manufacturers offer 20000 km.

The car is the same, the oil is the same, so go figure...

I guess you guys like to keep your maintenance shops busy

 

Not really. The dealerships in the EU will refill with an ACEA rated motor oil. At a minimum, these oils offer 12 month or 10,000 mile protection. The better oils can protect up to 24 months or 30,000 miles

A lot of folks in the EU fail to understand just how truly awful the North American API oil specs are. Even the proposed GF-5 specs fall short of the ACEA minimum specs

If you're stuck using minimum spec oils in North America, an oil change every 3-6 months is warranted. The engine sludge reports here didn't appear to be an issue in the EU

 

That's news to me. You're saying that our Mobil 1 is not the same as your Mobil 1 for example? Your Mobil 1 is not ACEA certified?

 

Mobil 1 is usually cross-certified. Eg, it will carry something like ACEA A1/B1-A5/B5 along with API SM and ILSAC GF-4

 

What's the problem then? Aren't most oils cross-certified?

I don't know about the car shops there in the US, but here all maker's dealer shops use good brand oils. In Portugal (and I suspect all over Europe) they use BP motor oils, which I bet are also cross-certified.

My point is: if you can choose to use a good oil, be it Mobil 1 or other, which is ACEA A1 certified as well as API SM, why should you be forced to pollute by wasting oil that is still perfectly good at 5000 miles???

I doubt they could argue against this, and I doubt they could invalidate your warranty.
They have no technical reason for what they ask for IMHO.

Anyway, this is an old discussion that pops up every now and then here... carry on...

 

Here in North America, the short answer: NO

Most synthetics are cross-certified, eg carry dual API and ACEA ratings. As an example, the Mobil 1 European Car Formula 0W-40 I run in my FJ Cruiser. It carries API SM rating. It also carries ACEA A3, B3/B4, Porsche 2002, Mercedes 229.5, and other specific ratings.

You have to understand that in North America, with very few exceptions the car maker can NOT have a unique oil requirement, that the oil company must meet or else. The API is primarily an oil company organization, not a car maker organization, so its the lowest possible common denominator

In the EU, the ACEA, in Belgium, is primarily a car maker organization, with very little representation from the oil companies. Hence the fact that different car makers have their own specs for oil durability and performance

Here in North America, folks have been conditioned to believe that all oils are exactly the same, and that a single viscosity is good for all conditions, from Arctic cold to desert heat. Under the eyes of the API, Mobil 1 and a cheap generic 5W-30 oil are EXACTLY THE SAME quality!

Which is nonsense

As a result of API brainwashing, the frequent oil changes are also popular. There is a thriving business model here for quick lube style places, which encourage oil changes as often as every 3,000-5,000 km.

I'm just curious if you have heard of any particular car makes in the EU suffering from engine sludge issues? Toyota in North America really got burned when they suggested a 12 month, 7,500 mile interval running minimum spec North American oil.

An Aunt and Uncle of mine had a Toyota that was under the engine class suffering from the sludge problem. My Uncle ran nothing but Mobil 1, with Mobil 1 filters, and usually changed the oil in his Sienna minivan no more often than 12 months or 10,000 miles.

He put over 200,000 miles on that motor, with no problem whatsoever

One consequence of that oil sludge issue is that Toyota universally lowered the oil change interval to 6 months or 8,000 km. On something like a Toyota Tundra pickup truck with the 5.7 litre V8, which holds 7 litres of oil, that gets pretty expensive

 

No-one uses non-synthetics here.

Not all are 100% synthetics, some are semi-synthetic, but most people like me only use pure synthetic oil.

Thanks a lot for your complete explanation.
Things do look ugly there, but it is clear now, at least to me, why you people suffer so much and spend so much with oil changes.

None that I'm aware of.

That's the part I don't understand.

If it is so obvious, at least for the informed people, that good oils can make much better, I'm sure the car makers know it too.

So, why not just demand pure synthetic oils who are certified ACEA and allow the US people to enjoy longer oil changes just like the rest of the world?

Don't say "universally". The USA is far from being the universe. Not even the world, let alone the universe. Most human beings live outside the USA.

 

A few notes, probably already written in this long thread, but let's say more a summary of EU vs US Toyota oil changes.

In EU, the 1st oil change is after 15000km/8800mi or 1 year, whatever comes first (they call this in Germany the "small-check"; the big check is after 30000km/17600mi or 2 years, whatever comes first).

I think the whole oil change in the US is a total rip-off from oil companies (which are the same that sell you gas) forced on the car makers. I see no other reason. If Toyota wanted to have its customers use good long-life oil, and have them change it after 8000mi, it would simply do so. Clearly there is something/somebody preventing it. I don't think it has nothing to do with suing or warranty - be sure that in EU if your car melts down because of an oil failure, oil that has been changed under the direction of the car maker, they will ALL repairs - no discussion about it. And as far I know it has never happened and I have never heard of something like this happening.

I have owned for 7 years a VW Polo Diesel (waiting for my new Prius...), and I have changed the oil only every 2 years (starting from year 0), that is, only when required from VW. I never made more km in 2 years to require a sooner change. I topped up the oil only once and I never had any engines problems and the fuel consumption was always perfectly fine. 1 liter (0,25 gallon) "long life" oil costs about 15€.
I think the Polo being Diesel enables a change later rather than sooner. I am not surprised of changing oil on a gas engine way sooner. Or maybe VW simply knows how to build good low maintenance engines (and I wouldn't be surprised about it...).

Moreover in EU it is illegal and compulsory by law that all car oils to be disposed of properly at gas stations or dealers who must dispose them properly/recycle them at certified companies. Which means, nobody changes the oil on their own, unless they are recycling it appropriately - you get a hefty fine for not disposing properly of car oil. You are simply not "throwing it away".

 

The ACEA oil specs are light-years beyond API. Consider that the proposed API/ILSAC GF-5 specs are about where the ACEA was back in 1990

Well, as the old saying goes: ignorance is bliss. A lot of folks truly do believe that all motor oils are exactly the same. After all, the cheapest minimum-spec 5W-30, and the most expensive synthetic 0W-30, both carry the same exact API rating

The API carries a lot of clout in the North American market. There is clearly a conflict of interest, as the API primarily represents the oil companies.

There is a thriving business here with many oil change shops, promoting oil changes as often as every 3,000 km, certainly no longer than every 5,000 km

Sorry. I meant that phrase within the context of North America

I completely agree.

There is clearly a conflict of interest involved with the API. By purposely keeping the oil specs so low, frequent oil changes are mandated. The many oil change franchises enjoy a thriving business, the oil companies get to sell more oil, everybody is a winner

Except the average driver

Again, you must understand how powerful the API - and other oil company lobby groups - are in North America. There are only rare exceptions to the rule, such as the VW, Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche cars sold here.

Their sales are so small, compared to the average mainstream car, that they have a niche market. But the average car very much falls under the trap of the API

Of course! Folks in North America get absolutely paranoid with fear if you mention changing the oil only once every 12 months, let alone every 24 months.

The API disinformation campaign has been so effective that the average driver not only believes that all motor oils are exactly the same, but that an oil change every 6 months or 8,000 km is "pushing" it

You can expect folks in North America, certainly on this forum, to react in horror at that statement. You might as well admit to performing back-alley circumcisions!

VW actually partnered with Castrol to develop a special motor oil that - under normal operating conditions - was perfectly suited for oil changes every 24 months OR every 50,000 km. To be competitive, other oil companies like Mobil and BP, Aral, Fuchs, etc, had to submit to rigorous testing to develop a similar manufacturer-approved oil

The Castrol testing actually covered intervals far beyond the 24 month/50,000 km suggested interval. They pushed the oils to 100,000 km, with no unusual wear

A lot of folks in North America fail to understand that the top rated ACEA oils can protect an engine BETTER than the cheap crap sold here, even at oil change intervals approaching 4-8 times longer

There is no reason why the same interval couldn't be applied to the North American market, as long as proper oils were used

As an example, I run Mobil 1 European Car Formula 0W-40 in my FJ Cruiser. Last summer, I had to do a lot of driving to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, as my father had some medical issues

I put almost 14,000 km on the oil, which is about 6,000 km more than Toyota recommends for our market. I changed the oil that fall, and sent a sample off to be lab tested

According to the lab test, the oil had hardly any metals or wear at all. It was clearly good for much longer, as it meets the ACEA specs for oil changes of up to 24,000 km

I'm not sure about where you live, but Winnipeg is affectionately known as "Winterpeg." Our winter temps can be Arctic in duration and intensity, with -40 C not being unusual

The API would have you believe a generic 5W-30 is good for all seasons, from arctic cold to desert heat. The problem is, if you read the fine print, a 5W-30 only has to perform down to -30 C. It can still earn a "pass" grade if it becomes borderline at -25 C

Every cold snap here, when the temps plunge to -40, there is always a rash of engines with blown front seals. The oil is too thick to properly pump, and something has to give.

Back in the early 1980's my father was one of the first in the area to run a 0W-30 oil for winter. It was - and still is - marketed as a heavy duty diesel engine oil from Esso Canada, their XD-3 lineup.

Folks reacted in HORROR when he mentioned he had switched his cars to 0W-30. He was warned the motors would explode, or melt down. Oddly enough, not only did the motors run just fine, but at -30 C when the power to the block heaters at work tripped out, his car was the only one that would start after sitting outside all day

Well, in theory, that same rule applies here too. Unfortunately, many still dump their oil on the ground

 

So, if I want to deviate from the 5000 mile interval as recommended, what oil would you recommend for a USA consumer that is easily available and meet the highest specs. How often would it need to be changed? I drive about 30000 miles a year and would like to use a 10000 mile interval.

 

This touches on a question I have: How persnickety is Toyota about every 5k miles? If I go in at 5200 mi, would they be likely to deny warranty on a related issue? What is the threshold--I know it's asking you to stick your corporate neck out, and I'd understand if you didn't want to, but, would anyone from the Prius Team care to weigh in on this one? Let's be realistic--not everyone can time their service to the exact tenth of a mile.

Thanks
Tim

 

Here's a data point. My previous car (BMW 545i) had 4 year maintenance included in the warranty (including an oil service every ~10,000 miles or so) and there was a 500 mile variance that BMW allowed (meaning they'd reimburse the dealer if you were 500 miles or less away from the next scheduled maintenance). Not meaning to speak for Toyota, but I'd think a few hundred miles variance wouldn't be an issue.

 

Thanks jayman for the detailed answer.

For the oil change, I follow the manual and have the car serviced as told by the manufacturer. In particular, for my VW (with winters here reaching only -20C, sometimes) I always had it serviced by VW and sticked to their service plan. Also because if you fail to do so, the "Mobility" service is not valid anymore (essentially if the car breaks down they tow it at their repair center at their own costs, and stuff like that). Also any warranty is void.
The changes every 2 years for the oil (I don't remember the timeframe in terms of kilometers) was strictly according to VW and the onboard computer of my Polo.

Consider also that yes, you have to change the oil much more often in the US, but you pay the Prius much, much less than in EU. For example the base model, maybe with less standard equipment than the base model in Germany, it's yours for a meager 22.000$/15.400€ (I suppose the prices on Toyota.com are without any sales tax/VAT - how much is VAT/sales tax on average in the US? here in Germany we fly at 19%!!!!): here you need to dish out for the base model with no additional options 35.500$/24950€ (incl. 19% VAT)...and you need to add to that 740$/520€ for any non white paint (that is, all other colors...).
Add to that, that you pay 1 gallon/3.98Lites of gas, what?, 2$/gallon, while in EU, on average, 1L/0,25 gallons is 1.3€/1.89$ (that is, 1 gallon in EU costs around 5$!!!, 4 times the price of the US!!!!), I would not worry too much about changing the oil too often on your car...honestly, you drive very, very cheaply in the US. Very cheaply.

 

PS: the cost comparison could be made on many other cars sold both in the US and EU. Not to mention how cheap are BMWs and the such in the US compared to EU....
Cars are simply cheap in the US, plain simple, even if the exchange rate would be 1€=1$...

 

As far as the 2010 model, Mobil 1 0W-20 used to claim ACEA A1/B1. This is generally considered a 10,000 mile oil quality in the EU

That's a good point

However, we really don't know what the quality of the oil is. Around 5 years ago, I had the dealership bulk oil tested after some alarming used oil analysis reports on my 2004 Prius

The dealership oil turned out to not only be horrible quality, but was contaminated with dirt and moisture

So when you contrast a high quality ACEA oil for the EU market, changed every 2 years, to a bare minimum specification oil for the North American market, you'd probably have better engine protection with the EU oil, running 4 times longer interval

Yes, I agree.

You must understand that many of the costs associated with cars are ignored in North America. The taxes that ensure high quality autoroutes, efficient mass transit, proper disposal and accounting of the used oil stream, are mostly lacking in the North American market

 

So, uhm, then what about putting a pallet of boxes of the good stuff on a ship and getting some decent oil change intervals possible on this side of the pond???

Requirements: Boats that cross the atlantic (check), a website to sell the stuff (should doable), and a ground shipping company to get it to the end user (what can brown do?)...

Or is there some crazy lawyer based, or politician caused nonsense why that's not possible?

Why on earth doesn't Toyota do this already?

This whole oil deal (super short interval plus more work due to the floor board) is one of the main reasons why I've been holding off my intended purchase of a 2010 prius IV...

I'm flabbergasted about this.

 

Nope never happen. The API would become very upset

 

Does anyone have a good reason why Toyota decided on a mileage minder (other than cost) as opposed to Honda's maintenance indicator which is based on oil condition? My wife's CRV averages 9K before oil changes.....

 

Bingo, I suspect. Gun shy after the law suit too.