Despite the Synthetic Oil requirement, 5000 mile change intervals are still "required"

Erica,

Thank you for the response. It prompts another question, however -- one that has been asked earlier: Is there something about other 0 W 20 oils that makes them unfit for use in the 2010 Prius? If other oils meet the specs listed in the manual, I can't see how they wouldn't be acceptable.

For instance: I thought the Mobil 1 specs matched what was required by Toyota. I think this is a valid and important question that deserves a pretty quick response from Toyota. Would you be able to direct me (or anyone else) to the person(s) best able to answer this question?

Thanks!

 

Pardon me for :deadhorse:

I live in Miami, FL which is HOT except for a couple of weeks during the year when it is moderately cool. The manual says 0W-20 is best for starting in cold weather, as opposed to a cold engine. And it goes on to say 5w-20 is acceptable as long as it is replaced at the next change. I drive 150 miles per weekday, so oil changes are going to be done every 6 weeks. If I live in predominantly very hot weather, could I stick to the 5w-20 as my regular oil and use 0w-20 only when in the cooler season?

 

Yes, let us know if we have to use Toyota synthetic motor oil. It will be time for my first oil change soon and I would love to have it for free under the terms of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. After all if Toyota specifies an oil that cannot be found eleswhere as a condition of warranty, they have to provide it for free.

Wayne

 

Is this the provision you're referring to:
(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty;
waiver by Commission
No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or
implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in
connection with such product, any article or service (other than
article or service provided without charge under the terms of the
warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name;
except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the
Commission if -
(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted
product will function properly only if the article or service so
identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and
(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public
interest.
The Commission shall identify in the Federal Register, and permit
public comment on, all applications for waiver of the prohibition
of this subsection, and shall publish in the Federal Register its
disposition of any such application, including the reasons
therefor.
(d) Incorporation by reference of detailed substantive warranty
provisions
The Commission may by rule devise detailed substantive warranty
provisions which warrantors may incorporate by reference in their
warranties.
(e) Applicability to consumer products costing more than $5
The provisions of this section apply only to warranties which
pertain to consumer products actually costing the consumer more
than $5.

Last modified: June 14, 2006

I don't yet know how to check the federal register and find out if this special oil provision was listed.

 

OK, I finally got an official response back from Toyota (via Ask Toyota) on this subject using A_PRIORI's questions he outlined in this post and this is what I got:

<<< start message >>>
Mr. Parker,

Thank you for contacting Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.

We appreciate the time you have taken to email us.

As stated in the owner's manual it states that the Prius only takes 0W-20 we do not recommend using any other oils except what is stated.

We do not have a recommended brand of oil as long as it is 0W-20.

In the Scheduled Maintenance Guide it is stated that Toyota recommends you change your oil at 5,000 miles or 6 months which ever occurs first, unless you are driving under special operating conditions. If fail to follow the scheduled maintenance guide and damage is done due to lack of maintenance are not covered under warranty. Please see the section of Operation and Maintenance in your Scheduled Maintenance Guide.

If we can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact us at Toyota Help.

Sincerely,
Joanne Hahn
Toyota Customer Experience Customer (Peter Parker)08/02/2009 08:43 AMHello, I would like to have the following answered:

1. Is alternating between 0W20 and 5W20 (in other words, using 0W20 at every other service interval) at 5,000-mile services acceptable in terms of maintaining the warranty?
2. Are there any motor oils labeled 0W20 that Toyota believes are inappropriate or unacceptable for use, so that the owner's use of those oils would void the warranty?
3. Do all Toyota dealers have the appropriate 0W20 oil available?
4. Under what circumstances would Toyota accept longer service intervals without voiding the warranty?
5. What proof may owners offer to show that longer intervals have not damaged the ICE or contributed to circumstances justifying voiding of the warranty?

Thank you,
Peter (2010 Prius owner)
<<< end message >>>

So with that and what was mentioned by the Prius Team, I am under the impression that it is OK to use Mobil1 as long as we don't mix it with Toyota's brand in the same oil change (read make sure all the previous brand is drained before using the other). Also make sure to use 0W-20 with the possible exception of 5W-20 if no 0W-20 can be found (whatever that means).

Peter

 

No, use 0w-20 all the time if at all possible. As the manual says, 5w-20 is OK for one oil change interval, the next time use 0w20. Your ambient temperatures have no effect on their recommendation.

 

If that's the case then the Toyota oil would be considered a special oil and we get it for free.

As long as the oil meets the current API service rating of SM (required for engines built since 2005), then the answer from Toyota Customer Experience is correct. Since you can never drain an oil completely from an engine, mixing will occur, so to say that we can't mix oils is impossible to achieve. Use whatever 0W20 oil you find that meets the API SM service rating. The only thing magic in the Toyota oil is the additive package they specify to the oil supplier to mix in with the base stock. Since the Toyota 0W20 oil is being used in mulitiple Toyota engines throughout the world, there is nothing special about it for the Prius, except it's 0W20 as specified in the manual. So go ahead and use Toyota, Mobil 1, Penzoil, Castrol, Amsoil (watch out here) or whatever else has the proper API service rating.

Now the Toyota oil may meet the new ILSAC GF-5 spec, which is suppose to be standard factory fill on 2010 model year engines. And Mobil 1 0W20 currently only meets the ILSAC GF-4 spec. So somewhere in Toyota someone may have been concerned about the lack of conformance with the ILSAC GF-5 spec of outside available oil. But if that were the case then the owners manual should have stated that the oil had to meet the API SM service rating and the ILSAC GF-5 spec. And the manual does neither. So whatever 0W20 you find will work. And what you will find is that all 0W20 oil is API SM and at least ILSAC GF-4, except Amsoil who doesn't like to publish what it meets (subject for another thread).

Wayne

 

Wayne,
I appreciate your comments. I think most if not all the people that have chimed in here are just concerned they are doing the right thing by their new investment by using the right oil. I am not particularly worried about this as I have at least 3-4 months before I need to do my first change and on top of that, the dealer is going to do the first one free (I hope they will have their oil in stock by than). With that said, I hope by the time I am ready to do the first one myself, all the confusion is cleared up.

Peter

 

I would like to see a virgin oil analysis to verify that claim. By Toyota specific, are you referrring to zinc, molybdenum disulfide, sodium, etc?

For if the factory fill, and dealership 0W-20, truly does have a unique additive package, that is not compatible with other oils, that implies serious engine damage may occur if non-Toyota engine oil is used, then under the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act (Title 15 USC, sc 2301 et sequentes), you must provide that oil FREE OF CHARGE

 

I spoke to my dealer service rep about this today and it was an interesting conversation! To sum up, he hadn't heard there was an issue with Mobil 1 used instead of Toyoil. As a matter of fact he said he exclusively used Mobil 1 in his own cars, and he works at the dealer! Besides, and this is a big one I hadn't yet heard discussed here, he claimed the factory Toyoil was actually supplied for Toyota by....... Mobil! Can you say "Wth?" He also stated very clearly that the gelation or "sludge" issue affected only conventional oils used in hotter southern climates at the long interval oil changes. NOT synthetics and NOT up north in cooler climates. If anyone can further confirm all this I'd love to hear it.

As it stands, it definitely appears, as most owners suspect, that the 5K mile interval is a CYA measure devised by a legal dept and not a real-world determination made by an engineering team. I did determine that they indeed have the 0w-20 oil for changes. Also, the idea of using conventional 5w-20 oil instead of synth to save some money has lost favor in my mind, even with the 5k mile changes. I'll definitely stick to synthetic, either Toyoil, Mobil 1, Valvoline or Penzoil Platinum in the 0w-20 grade. The dealer covers my first oil-change, but I figure I'll do the rest myself and keep the receipts in the owner's manual folder for future reference.

I don't see the point of going 10K miles between changes and doing one or two UOAs at 5K and/or 7.5K because UOAs cost more than the oil change!

Also, be sure to check for dealer oil-change specials or even quik-lube coupons that can be used to have the dealer match or compete with the quik-lube offer. My Envoy needed an oil change and I was quoted 39.95 by the dealer. After showing competing offers from Sears and J-Lube, I got the oil change at the GMC dealer for $17.xx including tax! The best offer from J-Lube was 19.95 plus tax.

 

Sorry to put in a second post so quickly, but I really need an answer from someone familiar with the ScanGauge. Does it tell you either hours of operation of the ICE vs the hrs of operation of the car itself? Or does it tell you somehow the number of miles traveled with the ICE running? Even if indirectly and you have to calculate something, I'd really like to know how many miles I travel on ICE vs total on HSD.

TIA,
Sphyrna

 

GF-5 spec isn't officially signed off yet.

"After completing the test development and technology demonstration, GF-5 tests and test limits are targeted to be finalized late in 2009. At this time, ILSAC/OIL formally votes on the approval of the GF-5 specification. Once the specification is approved, fluid developers can finalize the products they have been working on for so long. The industry has approximately 9-12 months to complete all of their candidate testing and licensing activities before the first use of the specification is allowed in the marketplace." - Main GF-5 Site GF-5 Specification Approval

"Anticipating the introduction of the Model Year 2011 cars, the actual API first license date is expected for sometime in 4Q 2010." - Main GF-5 Site 1st License Date

0W-20 is not a common oil grade in the UK so we may be stuck with Toyota's. Mobil don't import it. Japarts.co.uk offer a 4L bottle at £39.98!

 

I will generally agree that using a high quality synthetic motor oil will greatly minimize, but not automatically eliminate, any sludge or gelation concerns. The additive package in most synthetic motor oils is far beyond bargain-basement min-spec oils

Sludge/gelation is covered by ASTM D5133. The test is typically performed using a scanning Brookfield Technique to derive a Gelation Index

Although sludge and gelation can occur in moderate climates, ESPECIALLY with bargain-basement min-spec oils, this issue historically was one of cold climate. It's common to find cars up here that are under 5 years old, with severe gelation/sludge buildup

In motors, the ring land and crown land area of a piston will see deposits first. Due to the temps involved, deposits that form in the ring land, and underneath the piston top, will be ash or hard deposits.

With the ring land deposits, the rings will stick and blowby is much increased. Not only do you lose compression, but you also begin burning oil and have a lot of blowby into the crank. It's like a positive feedback loop, once the problem starts, it quickly becomes worse

Cold weather operation, the PCV and EGR combine to introduce oily condensation and vapors throughout the motor. The motor will never get up to proper operating temp, especially at -30 C and colder. The condensation in combination with normal combustion byproducts forms an acid mixture.

A conventional motor oil easily breaks down under such operation. A gooey mess results inside the motor, this is classic Gelation. The next step is true sludge, which is a much thicker, but still gooey, mess. This stuff tends to plug oil drainback passages in cylinder heads, and also plugs oil pickup screens

Note: the API/ILSAC wonderful "one viscosity for all seasons all motor oil is exactly the same" standard allows a min-spec oil for North America to pass with a Gelation Index of 12.

An index of 12 is considered a "warning" level of oil gelation under NORMAL operating conditions. Under severe operating conditions, eg extreme heat or extreme cold, that means the oil will allow gelation much sooner. Accelerated oil changes may minimise gelation damage, but using a quality synthetic is a better choice

I don't know the answer. I've never seen this feature on Toyota vehicles

GF-5 still ranks behind the bare minimum ACEA oil specs. An oil rated ACEA, *especially* ACEA A3/B3-B4, will provide much superior engine protection, for much longer intervals

For example, an oil available here, like the made in Germany Castrol Syntec 0W-30, or the Mobil 1 0W-40 European Car Formula, changed every 12 months or 16,000 km, will protect the engine MUCH better than a min-spec API garbage oil changed every 5,000 km or 3 months

Outside of the US and Canada, where is *any* xW-20 motor oil commonly available??

I used to be able to easily get Mobil 1 0W-20 at Canadian Tire, which is a nationwide auto parts/service chain. So I stocked up on this oil, as I had great results with my Prius, especially in -40 winters

But Canadian Tire no longer carries it, they switched to Mobil 1 5W-20 instead. I've never seen any 0W-20 oil readily available in Canada

Which is odd, considering that overall the Canadian winters have a lot in common with Alaska

Ford, Mazda, and Honda cars that here REQUIRE a xW-20 oil, in the EU and Australia, never run anything lighter than a 5W-30.

 

I popped over to Bitog and asked about this Toyota 0W20 oil and got some info on it. By the way the price he is quoting is Canadian.

The posters name is Caterham

So the plot thickens as they say.

Now I go to another Toyota board and I find this posted a reply from Toyota on the status of the 0W20 oil.

 

I have a scangauge on order and have studied the manual. As far as I can tell, it does not give ICE running time or a way to calculate that. The manual is available in the support secion of www.scangauge.com .

 

I can relate to that. However there is just ~650,000 people in the entire state and it is not a big market place. However, I have seen the Mobil 1 and other band (0W-20) available here.

Peter

 

This is what I'm going to do....
Drop the OE oil @1000mi and send it BlackstoneLabs to see what it's got.....
Install ~4.1qts of the good stuff...Mobil1 0w/20. $6.27/qt from WalMart....
Run that for 5k miles, and send a sample of it to Blackstone also.
We'll see how 'special' the ToyoOil is........

 

That sounds like a great idea, please keep us informed on the findings!
Peter

 

When I first started using Mobil 1 0W-30, it was readily available at Pep Boys and Autozone in Utah. Back in Canada, nobody had heard of it.

The exception being a heavy duty oil, like Esso XD-3 0W-30. Which everybody up here thought would instantly blow up a motor, and render you impotent

Ahhhhh, progress .....

That is the only way to actually determine just how "special" this Toyota oil is

 

Just keep in mind that the factory fill oil is often very different from what you get from the dealer - or at least it will most likely be contaminated with assembly lube, too.

At least, every single factory fill UOA that I've seen appears that way. I think the only ones that are different are high-dollar, high-horsepower engines which are fully broken in from the factory.