Despite the Synthetic Oil requirement, 5000 mile change intervals are still "required"

Apparently the oil change time clock doesn't start ticking until the car is registered. There are Dodge, Suzuki and Mitsubuishi car dealers selling 2008 model new cars that have been sitting around for much more than 6 months. They start the clock at purchase time, not at manufacture time.

 

The Honda, BMW and GM maintenance minder systems work when the car is sitting on the lot - as they trigger OCIs and other needed maintenance based on driving habits and engine workload. But Honda clearly states that if the vehicle is driven in extreme climates or used as a towing vehicle that the coolant and ATF is to be changed more frequently - and the timing belt to be done every 90K. They also say if it has been past a year since the MAINT REQD or SERVICE REQUIRED message has been triggered(usually when the car is sitting on a lot or is a garage queen, the oil should be changed.

I don't know how GM does things, their idiot light only covers oil and filters. ATF and Dex-Cool is supposedly "lifetime" fill but look at what's happened to them. BMW's system works a lot like Honda's system, but BMW breaks the services down between a major service or a oil change(oil service).

Toyota should start using such as system.

 

Hence my theory that there is some sort of force field over a dealership lot that protects oil from breakdown. So when you buy a car and leave it parked in the garage, that is somehow *much* worse than when at the dealership they fire it up, drive it 100 yards, and shut it off, 5 times a week

 

Amen! That's it, in a nutshell. It's a corollary of Murphy's Law. Undoubtedly....

 

This issue simply will not go away, and I don't think it is proper to leave it as-is.

Reading the manual information, it is clear that 0W20 is the required oil. Even if it reads that 5W20 may be used when followed by 0W20 at the next 5,000 mile service, it does allow for this only when 0W20 isn't available. Tell me under what conditions it isn't available? If you have the service done at any Toyota dealer or garage, they will have 0W20 available.

Also, the business about Mobil 1 not being appropriate for the Prius is too difficult for me to understand. If the manufacturer says the oil meets the standards Toyota requires, then how could it not be acceptable?

Further, requiring the use of synthetic oils yet demanding 5,000-mile service intervals also is entirely inappropriate.

Yes, I realize I am not going to get arguments from PC readers on these issues. What I am hoping for is some type of concerted effort to raise specific questions with Toyota so that owners of 2010s are not left with so many ridiculous questions. From what I've read, there are many ways for the average owner to be denied warranty coverage even when taking the car to a dealer every 5,000 miles.

As far as I can tell, these are the basic questions:

1. Is alternating between 0W20 and 5W20 (in other words, using 0W20 at every other service interval) at 5,000-mile services acceptable in terms of maintaining the warranty?
2. Are there any motor oils labeled 0W20 that Toyota believes are inappropriate or unacceptable for use, so that the owner's use of those oils would void the warranty?
3. Do all Toyota dealers have the appropriate 0W20 oil available?
4. Under what circumstances would Toyota accept longer service intervals without voiding the warranty?
5. What proof may owners offer to show that longer intervals have not damaged the ICE or contributed to circumstances justifying voiding of the warranty?

What I'd like to know is whether there are people who truly understand not only the situation but the oils who would review these questions and advise me which ones are valid and/or reasonable to take to Toyota. (Yes, I'd love to have additional and/or replacement questions!!)

 

That would be the proverbial horses' mouth. I would hope the Prius Team would read over all the posts but probably not. Perhaps sending the message directly to them via a PM? If not a memo to Corporate.

Peter

 

It should make no difference whatsoever. But any excuse to deny warranty is a good excuse. If there is a hidden manufacturing defect, you could change the oil and filter daily, and not prevent failure

If the only oil that meets the new Prius standard is from Toyota, per the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act, Toyota must provide it free of charge

From the initial reports we've had: NO. They'll keep using whatever no-name generic garbage they have sitting in the bulk lube tank out back. Incidentally, I really wish Toyota would practise standard industrial contamination control, such as using a dessicant breather on the bulk lube tank

If a Prius were to sit on the dealership lot for 12 months, they won't change the oil. They'll even claim there is no harm is starting a motor, driving 200 yards maximum, and shutting it off, 5 times a week.

But to keep warranty, you had better change that pricey synthetic 0W-20 every 6 months or 5,000 miles

A used oil lab test is the industry accepted procedure to determine the overall health of a motor, and of the oil. I doubt it will have any influence over Toyota.

Consider what a Charlie Foxtrot the sludge settlement caused. Folks who followed the 7,500 mile interval, even at the dealership, had some vehicles with sludge/gellation.

As a result, instead of requireing a better oil, such as a synthetic, Toyota universally lowered the interval to 5,000 miles or 6 months. The same motor used in the EU, has a normal 12 month or 10,000 mile interval

 

I wholeheartedly agree with many of the posts on this topic. I'm glad that my Prius will see only about 10K miles per year, and two oil changes. Especially at, what I expect, very high charges for this service at Toyota dealers.

Recall the issues Toyota encountered with the oil sludge issues:

(From the Center For Auto Safety)
Faced with a consumer revolt over low mileage engine failures caused by oil sludge buildup, Toyota has begun to notify 3.3 million owners of 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles with 3.0-liter IMZ V-6 engines and all 1997-2001 Toyota vehicles with 5SFE 2.2-liter 4-cylinder engines that it will cover the cost of sludge-related repairs for eight years from date of initial sale.
Whether this will satisfy the thousands of Toyota and Lexus owners who have already suffered engine failure remains to be seen because Toyota's Special Policy falls short of an express warranty. Toyota modified V-6 engines made after July 2001 but has not recalled the earlier engines.

I was one that received the Toyota extended warranty, but never had an issue during 105K miles on a Lexus. There's little doubt (in my mind) that this 5K oil interval is related to that very costly Toyota problem. And now we consumers must pay for it over the life of their vehicle. Mind you, I do not mind paying for required maintenance for an expensive piece of equipment. But this decreased interval, and expensive synthetics, seems to fly in the face of the competition. I would completely understand if Toyota bases this on the increased demands of the ICE off/on - but this has never been determined, as far as I know.

Let's appeal to the Gurus on PChat that know (or have influence) the Toyota / Prius Doug Coleman team to have them address this topic. And not sweep it under the rug. I feel we owners have paid a premium to be Prius owners and deserve a valid explanation of the oil change interval topic. Please...

 

Peter,

I appreciate this, as my intention is to provide this information to Toyota, probably through Doug Coleman and the Prius Team. If they are reading through this thread, they'll have some knowledge. If they receive a thoughtful memo, with input from knowledgeable and experienced persons, they will take action on it -- including forwarding it up the chain.

What I'm looking for is input from the "knowledgeable and experienced persons." I know what a car is. I know what motor oil is (well, generally I know what it is). I am not well-versed enough to be the spokesperson, but I would like to participate in getting the word out.

By the way, our responsibility is to get the word not only to Toyota, but also to all of the new and would-be buyers: "Great & Fabulous Car, but understand that you'll need to pay between $30 and $40 more, per oil change, because you'll have to use synthetic oil AND you STILL must use the 5,000-mile interval."

 

Couldn't agree more so I PM'ed the Prius Team asking them to review this post and respond with some official information.:cheer2:

Peter

 

So...increaded cost to change the oil has reduced (eliminated ?)value of increased MPG

 

The funny thing is, for me I was changing the oil in my other vehicles every 3-4K miles anyway (regular oil that is). So 5K or 6 months will be an improvement (synthetic aside). When I read my 06 Kia Sedona OM it said 3K miles oil changes in severe conditions which I figured Alaska was. But I have the van in the shop at this very moment for service bulletin and they said 5K was fine for the warranty. Go figure.

In the end, I gotta feeling Toyota is not going to be real picky about this in regards to the warranty. Just my 2 cents. Hopefully we will get some feedback directly from them soon.

Peter

 

Peter

I would be very careful making a bet like that

jay

 

Hi All,

I am not real sure I understand why people are freaking out about a 5K oil change interval. My GM car with a timing-chain had a 3K mile oil change interval. The issue is the links in the chain, and pawl on the adjuster wear unacceptably when there is lots of particulate load in the oil. To get the service life the combination of the pawl wear and chain lengthing (each links hole getting slightly bigger) the oil needs to be changed.

The Prius also has a timing chain engine - all generations of Prius.

If you have never done timing chain service on a car, you may not understand how small a penalty it is to change the oil at 5K miles as a way to delay that repair till the rest of the car is not servicable.

Now, on the 0W20 requirement, it does seem like this may be a way to milk the cow more. By making people buy their oil at dealar inflated prices, dealers make allot of extra money. But is that a temporary situation, and over time many more cars will start to use this oil? And thus this is a temporary situation that will correct itself. In which case its petty to bitch and moan about being a new adopter. Without progress, nothing better happens.

The 5W20 thing is probably in regards to hot climate/summer weather situation. They probably should have clarified its OK to use 5W20 when the weather is no expected to go below say 40 F. But make sure your using 0W20 when the weather can be going down below 10 F - oh like the day after Thanksgiving holiday up where Jayman lives (Ha!).

 

I've rebuilt a few Chevy 350 V8's and a Ford 289 V8. The big issue with timing chain wear is the absolute crap OEM chain used back then.

For instance, the crank gear had PLASTIC teeth. This was sold as making the timing chain very quiet. No matter what oil you used, the plastic teeth wore quickly, and by 60,000 miles or so, the timing chain was making a death rattle

Aftermarket timing sets were all metal, so slightly more noisy, but they lasted. Especially the double roller timing chains, they will last the life of the motor

The biggest wear item to those V8's happened to be the camshaft. An important anti-wear additive in motor oils was ZDDP, which contained zinc. The zinc protected the cam lobes from wear, as the cam lobes are only surface hardened

If you ran a valvetrain with higher than stock spring pressure, especially a solid lifter cam, you could expect short camshaft life unless you changed the oil at least every 3,000 miles

The problem with zinc, in ZDDP, is that its thought to reduce the life of O2 sensors and catalytic converters. So the level of zinc has been dramatically reduced in modern motor oils, to around 1/3 of what it used to be in the early 1980's.

That isn't a concern for modern motors, as hardly any modern motors use camshafts with pushrods. Those that do, such as the GM truck motors, use roller lifters, and that sort of camshaft wear is no longer a concern

I'd be very surprised if the Prius timing chain set experienced any sort of odd wear issues. I ran extended oil changes, and put on almost 140,000 miles before I sold my 2004 Prius. No noise at all

However, if you suspect the plastic chain guide or timing chain itself may have wear issues, the only way to prevent that is to use an oil with higher ZDDP levels.

There are some oils from Amsoil, Mobil (Mobil 1 0W-40 European Car Formula, Mobil 1 15W-50), and Castrol (Castrol Syntec 0W-30 made in Germany, Castrol Syntec 5W-40) that have higher ZDDP levels. There is no doubt higher ZDDP levels reduce engine wear, especially sliding friction like lifters on camshafts, and pushrod stems, which the Prius does not have

You can also get ZDDP additive to put in the oil.

If there was an issue with Toyota timing chain wear, especially the long timing chain used in my FJ motor, we'd hear about it by now. There are enough high mileage 2004 Prius cars, especially used as Taxi's, that we should have heard of timing chain wear and replacement, if it was an issue

 

The way this summer has been, close enough to the truth

A 5W-20 should be fine to at least -30 C. If temps are consistently -25 C, like for weeks on end, you will notice a difference in cranking a conventional car if it has 0W-30, 0W-20, compared to 5W-30 or 5W-20

Although my FJ motor doesn't appear to like any xW-20 oils, I ran my 2004 Prius most of its life on 0W-20, with excellent results. No oil consumption, very low wear metals

A lot of folks may be afraid of such a "light" oil. In a new tight motor, it will work fine. Indeed, the military spec for OEA, MIL-L-46167, is a synthetic heavy duty 0W-20.

The military generally doesn't want it used in temps consistently over freezing, but it's approved down to -67 F. It's also approved for short-term use in moderate climates, say moving a HEMTT or other truck for transport on a ship or plane

 

Hi jayman,

I did my Opel Manta after it developed a chain slap noise. Found the chain tensioner pawl plastic runner was nearly worn through to the metal lever. And the chain was about 1/2 an inch longer than the new one. I bought the car used, so do not know what the oil changes were like for the first 1/3 of its life. I also did an oil flush to free up any of the galleries, just incase the oil-powered tensioner was not getting good supply.

Even on the rear-wheel drive Manta, getting all the engine accessories off the front of the car, and removing the radiator was allot of work. This was needed to get to the timing cover bolts.

 

Well, again, one can't compare a rear wheel drive car dating to the early/mid 1970's, with modern cars. A lot of V8 vehicles from the mid 1970's to mid 1980's came with substandard timing chain sets, as the crank gear had plastic teeth

I still don't understand the plastic teeth on the crank gear. They claimed it was quieter, but how could you tell the difference with the motor running? I believe it was just the ultimate example of making stuff cheap-a** as possible. Once the plastic teeth wore down enough, it was easy for the chain to jump 1-2 teeth and throw timing way off

The chains used back then would also stretch to the point they'd easily jump teeth. The aftermarket timing chain sets were much, much better, and will last the life of the motor.

Edelbrock.com - Valvetrain - Timing Chains

There are some rare examples of timing chains stretching/wearing on modern cars, such as a few Mercedes models. Otherwise, they're pretty good now

 

We know there's been much discussion over the new synthetic oil guidelines from Toyota. As was mentioned back in April, the new oil will eventually roll out across more lines and manufacturers and provide lower emissions and improved fuel efficiency.

The owner's manual lists the use of 0W-20 and 5K oil change intervals so we can't really comment further on what would void your warranty.

The synthetic oil should now be available at all dealers and should very soon be available in bulk, which will reduce the costs for everyone. Genuine Toyota Motor Oil 0W-20 contains a Toyota specific additive package within it, making it not interchangeable with other synthetic oils of the same weight such as Mobil 1.

We can't say much more now, but stay tuned for more info shortly, our experts are doing their best to provide more information as it becomes available.

Best,
Erica G, Prius Product Marketing, TMS, USA

 

Would that mean a person shouldn't mix the oils say in the same change or does that mean a person should never use Mobil1 in the engine?

Thanks for the feedback,
Peter