Did you consider a Jetta TDI before going Prius?

Jetta TDI has aero drag of 0.31 Cd. Prius has one of the lowest 0.25 Cd with 24% advantage. However, Jetta TDI has 15% more energy from the fuel. Prius should do as good or even better on 75-80 mph interstate long hauls.

With reports from 2010 owners like this, it will be tough for Jetta TDI to beat Prius at those speed. Have you driven the same long hauls with your 2010 Prius? What MPG did you get with the TDI vs. Prius?

I think Prius has the win-win situation here. It gets the best MPG in both the city and the highway of any new car available in USA. It has the highest EPA highway MPG as well.

 

Yes, it is important to contrast that between Diesel and Atkinson cycle gas engines. To become cleaner, Diesel engine looses efficiency while gas engine gains efficiency.

Your constructive input is valuable in the other thread that I was comparing with the graphs. I wouldn't come to that conclusion yet.

 

not to nitpick, but i would say the prius has a 19.3% advantage (.06/.31)

 

Thanks, I was doing 0.06/0.25. I should have stated that Jetta TDI has 24% more aero drag than the Prius. I was thinking the disadvantage for the Jetta is the advantage for the Prius.

 

If I may say so, Mike did excellent for a first run on the 2010 Prius.

He managed to easily get 3.1 L/100km (76 MPG US) on a mixed suburban and highway (hitting 60 MPH at times).

I have absolutely no doubt he would have gotten even better if he had just a bit more seat time.

Warning to the wise:
Just make sure you don't ignore him again at the hybridfest MPG challenge or he'll be teaching everyone a lesson, again.


Cheers;

 

Actually I appreciate having a Prius sales prospect show up:

Fortunately, the USA Environmental Protection Agency performs testing on different vehicles to give us a baseline of relative vehicle performance:


In fact, I understand it is against the law for any car dealer to claim some other number because of the lack of standards behind those numbers. So looking at the available 'legal' data when comparing the manual and automatic, Golf diesel, we find the automatic has:

• 10% loss of efficiency on the highway ( (44-40) / 40 )

That is what engineering does, performs well controlled and reproducible tests to tell us what the vehicle does.

That is be beauty of engineering and science, it provides a credible basis of estimate. Now if we could just get the global warming deniers to use science and engineering ... But it does something else, it eliminates personal bias ... the Pons and Fleishman effect.

There is a difference between a 'cost of ownership', a lifetime mileage versus a one-time stunt. The boring 'cost of ownership' is what happens day-after-boring day and competes with groceries and utility bills. This is where the Prius excels, it far exceeds Golf diesel performance. We not talking just uniform, engineering testing but also the owners:

• 52.8 - early Prius 2010 owners
• 48.8 - Golf diesel manual transmission owners
• 42.9 - Golf diesel automatic transmission owners

But since you are here, let's go over why you should buy a Prius. In fact, it may make sense to keep the Golf as a second car and the Prius for ordinary trips where the hybrid electric drive excels. After all, we can fill in the parts you don't know:

Actually, many visitors come only to be surprised by the facts and data. Of course a casual visit is not nearly as effective as renting a Prius for a couple of days. There is something about having free reign of the vehicle, a chance to 'sleep over' and drive it the next day that let's you really find out what works and doesn't:

• Avis - rents Prius
• Budget - rents Prius
• Enterprise - rents Prius
• Check with your dealer, they may have an NHW20 for rent

PriusChat is one of a three, definitive sources for information about the Prius, the vehicle. We can help fill in the gaps.

There is much more to the Prius than just the cabin and body:

This is the exhaust heat recovery system that makes the Prius an outstanding, cold weather car. Heat from the exhaust after the catalytic converts is used to warm the engine coolant. This provides extra cold-weather warmth for the passengers as well as keeping the engine in a hybrid efficient temperature range.

One feature found on diesels is exhaust gas recirculation used to reduce nitrogen oxide formation. It is also found on the 2010 Prius but for a different purpose:

That rectangular heat exchanger behind and to the upper right of the legend plate cools the exhaust gas before adding it to the intake manifold. At high power, this allows the engine to avoid knock, using regular gasoline, and it cools the engine exhaust to avoid burn-out of the catalytic converters. In earlier Prius during high power climbs, the mixture was made rich to keep the exhaust temperatures safe and this of course impacted mileage.

One last, critical feature, is the 2010 Prius has no engine belt driven accessories:

This provides several distinct advantages:

• electric water pump - it doesn't run when the engine is warming up and avoid wasting warm-up fuel and speeds it up. It also means only as much coolant water is circulated as needed versus an inefficient fixed ratio sized for hot climates.
• electric air conditioner compressor - perhaps not so important in northern latitudes, when needed, the air conditioner is very efficient and there is no compressor clutch. Best of all, the engine doesn't have to run to blow cooled air, which might keep out the bitting flies and mosquitos during their season.
• electric steering, electric radiator fans, electric brake pump - these avoid having to run the engine to generate the fractional energy these systems need.

Really, it takes time, a couple of days, to fully appreciate the Prius as a family vehicle. Prius rental might run a $100 or so for a couple of days but then you and the family can really evaluate the car and understand what it does. It changes one's mindset from a toy to a tool, a family asset.

Bob Wilson

 

There are more than enough knowledgeable TDI owners on VW forums, so I would be contributing little that someone else could. Here, it's a different story, which is why I am posting.

 

Hi Bob, two requests:

1. Please stop telling me about how the Prius works. Remember what I told you about me knowing how it works? I knew about the EGR, exhaust heat exchanger, and beltless design. You are just wasting space and bandwidth.

2. Please understand that I'm not looking for a new car and that your help is not required. When I am looking for a replacement, I may ask. Until then, I can manage on my own.

Please try to keep those in mind when replying. It will speed things along, and keep the discussion closer to the original topic. I am starting to find your information on the Prius and why I should buy one disruptive to the original topic. If you must continue that discussion, please start a "Why seftonm should buy a Prius" thread and I may join you there if I find the information useful and new to me. That way we won't hijack this thread and make it something irrelevant to all the other users.

Wow, I say please a lot. Must be because I'm Canadian

Now, let's continue, more on topic.

Again, why are you putting up the 2001 Golf's numbers? Who is comparing a 2001 Golf to a 2010 Prius? I am not. Please recall that I said we averaged over 50mpg in a Sportwagen. That is a 2009 model, with completely different engineering from the Golf. Different engine, transmission, body style, platform, and so on. The numbers from the 2001 Golf are not relevant at all to what the 2009 Sportwagen can do on the highway. I apologize, but I had forgotten that Manuel and I had done a review of the 2009 Jetta TDI automatic sedan. I just looked it up and the car averaged 57.4mpg US on the highway. So, yes, the automatic can do better than 50mpg.

Now that we see that the automatic 2009 Jetta TDI can do >50mpg on the highway, let's go back to the Golf for just a second. I believe there is a flaw with your science and engineering. If I understand your reasoning correctly, the Golf automatic cannot achieve 50mpg on the highway because of the mpg estimates? Yet the 2009 Jetta automatic we tested has the same EPA estimates and we were easily over 50mpg on the highway. The 2010 Prius in your graphic is rated at 50mpg combined. But my combined average was somehow 76mpg. It appears your engineering algorithms may need refinement.

I'm going to skip most the "why I should buy a Prius" discussion. I already understand the Prius is an extremely affordable vehicle to own and drive. I'll just add this: My Golf already is my second car. It gets driven approximately once a week. My primary method of transportation needs no insurance and burns no fossil fuel. Maintenance costs for the past 3 years have amounted to $5. My next car may very well be a Prius. I'll give you 1-2 years to build up your your "why I should be a Prius" discussion for when when I am shopping. Thanks,

Mike

 

Well you're still here, in the house of Prius, and there are so many excellent elements about the Prius that we've not yet covered. Safety elements that can save you and your family as well as others. For example, electronic steering and brakes.

One of the features offered this year is:

• lane following
• accident avoidance radar
• adaptive cruise control

These are available on the 2010 Prius because they tie into the electronic steering and electronic brakes. But the whole, integrated electronics of the Prius means ordinary safety system that were not available on the 2001 Golf have been significantly upgraded:

The Prius has always had electronic accelerator, throttle, and brake control. So if someone has occasion to drive on ice and snow, the enhanced vehicle stability system can be a real life saver.

Your signature. The Golf is just like the Jetta and you have a Jetta too?

The perfect car for replacement. It is fully depreciated and the driver assist technologies: lane following, accident avoidance, and adaptive cruise control augment skills that don't get a daily exercise. The 2010 Prius is one of the first affordable cars that makes a major step towards automating these driving tasks.

The low vibration and noise levels of the Prius, even the NHW11 model, significantly reduces driver fatigue. But with lane following, the car become 'stable to the lane.' It only takes a few tens of milliseconds of distraction to have a horrible result. The 2010 Prius lane following make the car road-stable. Electronic eyes to reduce driver load and provide a margin of safety:


It even works around curves:

This again reduces the driver load and fatigue. It makes driving fun again.

The adaptive cruise control also reduces driver fatigue on long trips. So instead of the innumerable speed changes needed to flow safely with traffic, the electronic accelerator adjusts the car to stay a safe distance from the vehicle ahead:

• Long: approximately 50 m (160 ft.)
• Middle: approximately 40 m (130 ft.)
• Short: approximately 30 m (100 ft.)

Now it doesn't work well in some conditions, heavy rain or snow or narrow twisty roads, but on the open road, it can be a great relief:


Finally, accident avoidance can not be emphasized enough. It takes only seconds for a deer, a car or a human to step in the way. Often the surprise factor alone can delay taking effective action. But the accident avoidance tied into the brakes and seat-belts acts faster than a human and never grows tired or sleepy. This is possible because the radar sensor backs up the driver:


You need to understand I'm a Southerner and we believe in courtesy ... offering to others the same kindness offered to us. You have come to chat about your favorite ride so it would be rude, even discourteous if we didn't not offer to you similar treats from our cubbard:


We love to have new folks come and learn about our wonderful cars. So enjoy the experience and 'carpe diem'.

Bob Wilson

 

But no one here gives a flying fig about the TDi, so it's like preaching god to the Atheist Church. We come here to share about Prius, it isn't called Prius and TDi Chat, unless Danny changed the sign at the door since I came in. I somehow doubt your going to create a change in thinking and suddenly Google will direct searches for information about TDi to Prius Chat. Really wouldn't it make more sense to back up the guys at TDi Chat? I know jack shoot about Prius over and above what the others here know but I'm here for laughs and to provide some moral support. You could be doing just that on TDi Chat.

 

I 'm at a loss as to why you guys are being so rude?

 

Thank you but I'm sure many of us share a common goal as expressed in the thread title, "Did you consider ..." We want a fair and open consideration and this doesn't mean anyone should have to

"Please <shut up!>"
​

If someone wants a monolog, a one-sided recitation of their view point, contact the web site owners and take out an ad.

A little history but this thread started 05-23-2009:

This first posting full of inaccuracies and omissions was four days before I got my 2010 Prius and within a week of the first 2010 Prius showing up in owner hands. Since then, a great deal of new information has become available:

• the EPA fueleconomy site
• "new car features" from the Toyota Technical Services
• actual purchase prices
• personal mileage numbers

Now I don't mind if six weeks later, someone wants to carry the water for the Jetta TDI ... even if they don't have one. But fair is fair and that means the dialog continues.

It is not "rude" that the pro-Prius arguments are now even more persuasive than before. So we have a Jetta defender, obviously ignorant of these new details (or they might have posted them in their text, don't you know.) Even if that individual's claims of Prius knowledge were accurate, there is a third party ... those who are following this thread.

Depending up the web site, there is a 10 to 100 times multiplier of viewers, lurkers, compared to posters. The viewers may not have access to the details, the facts and data, brought by the posters. So whether the first poster to this thread has wandered off, another stand-in has thankfully shown up. And this is the beauty of it.

When a Jetta advocate posts something, it becomes a hook, an excuse, to bring bring out the latest Prius facts and data. We have a chance to look at the details and compare claims now that both vehicles are in the hands of owners and more engineering data is available.

Bob Wilson

 

Am I being rude?
I was just trying to work out why someone would be pushing a VW on Prius Chat.

Oh, that's right, it's a VW, you will have to push it somewhere during its life. (sorry, bad hunour)

Actually if I was thinking about a diesel instead of the Prius I'd be looking at a Hyundai i30 hatch. They are a very nice car and quite roomy too. Wider than Prius but not as long. The i30CW wagon has just come out, that is as roomy as the Prius I think.
http://www.hyundai.com.au/i30-CW/default.aspx

 

That number has gone down:

Automakers scrap diesel plans | The Car Tech blog - CNET Reviews

Bob Wilson

 

Approximately a month ago, I purchased a 2010 barcelona red Prius V with dark gray interior and the optional navigation package. I am averaging 52 mpg around town, have had no problems to date and got exactly what I thought I was paying for. The bottom line is that the Prius is a vehicle that delivers outstanding mileage but is absolutely boring to drive. Unless you enjoy watching the ECO meter and the electrons running to and from the battery, there is nothing about the Prius that gets the adrenalin flowing. It's simply basic high mileage, average handling transportaion with a great air conditioner.

Five days ago, I purchased a 2009 platinum gray VW Jetta TDI with automatic transmission, light gray interior, IPOD adapter, Bluetooth and 17 inch wheels. My objective was to compliment the exceptional city driving characteristics of the Prius with a vehicle that delivered economy and superb performance/handling on the highway. I believe that objective has been accomplished. The adrenalin begins to flow immediately when you strap yourself into the firm, body hugging bucket seats of the Jetta and crank up the TDI. The Jetta handles like a sports car in the sharpest turns, has exceptional acceleration and chews up the hills due to the high torque delivered by the TDI.

Overall, I believe both vehicles are fantastic economy and ECO friendly autombiles. There is no doubt that the Prius is the mileage king but the Jetta is the one that delivers on the fun factor.

 

Not at all. As someone who just disposed of an '86 second car, shifting a '97 down to second position, I believe that Seftonm's '01 Golf is far too young to be replaced. Being driven just once per week, there is little economic justification for taking on new car depreciation. While his multi-year average of 47.7 mpg is not exciting, his two most recent tanks of 56.9 and 60.3 mpg are nothing to sneeze at.

 

It definately comes across that way to me my friend. Mike is defending what he considers invaild arguments against the VW which for everyone concerned is a good thing if it leads to truth and not hyperbole.

The think is, Mike is not new here. He's been a member for quite some time and is friends with other members like MSantos and FireEngineer.

I don't see anything wrong with debating facts. That's what this thread is all about but when he is attacked for just being here it seems a bit unreasonable to me considering he is not a troll in any way and has been very upfront about his purpose here. You know I respect you and Bob a great deal but you guys seem to be going a bit rough on the guy is all. Maybe I'm the only one that sees it and if so I'll shut up.

 

Good deal!

I probably would have gone for a light airplane for my fun vehicle and simply commuted to the airport in the Prius. Still, to each their own.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

 

You are not alone.

 

I'm late responding to this, but ....

the 2010 rear seat legroom is NOT less than the Gen2 Prius.

The 2010 driver's seat can move back 2.5" farther than the Gen2 Prius seat, which can leave somewhat less legroom behind that seat, but this does not mean the 'Gen3 has less rear legroom than the Gen2'.

Very few people would drive with the Gen3 driver's seat all the way back and down. Even I, at 6'2" would click it at least 1 notch forward and up a bit.

On the contrary, the Gen3 Prius has slightly more rear seat legroom than the Gen2 since the Gen3's seatbacks are made thinnner than the Gen2's.

Toyota has nailed the seating on the Gen3 Prius. It is much better than the Gen2, 2009 Corolla / Matrix, Honda Civic / hybrid, Fit, Insight, Mazda3, and Yaris.

Gen2 front seats are even with Yaris liftback and worse than all others mentioned. Toyota leapfrogged with the '10 and now is not too far behind a Camry in front / rear seating. Good job Toyota! I don't know about Jetta TDI rear seating, but the fronts are luxurious.