Car And Driver Article.

Is the Geo Metro still in production? No. Why? People don't want to compromise for the sake of MPG. It is just a matter of trade-off and a lot of people don't buy it. No sales = no production.

HSD broke that trade-off line and offers much more for high MPG and low emission. HSD is bound for a new set of trade-offs but the boundary is twice bigger so there are more room to play around with. Prius is a mainstream car with the MPG without any compromises. It even has a load of hybrid premium features.

The key is not MPG. It is the MPG without compromises.

 

'92 is:

XFI: 46 MPG cmb (even more underpowered than the one above)
MT: 41 MPG cmb
AT: 33 MPG cmb

Its also worth noting the emissions difference (only have '90 data at the moment, sorry):

Hydrocarbons:
'10 Prius: 0.005 g/mi
'90 Metro XFI: 0.18 g/mi (36 times worse)

Carbon Monoxide:
'10 Prius: 0.04 g/mi
'90 Metro XFI: 0.92 g/mi (23 times worse)

NOx:
'10 Prius: 0.003 g/mi
'90 Metro XFI: 0.24 g/mi (80 times worse)

It does suck that no-one makes a really efficient small commuter. If they did, I would have seriously considered over buying a second Prius. On the other hand, I think the Prius' success compared to other hybrids is pretty good proof that Toyota chose a very good balance of size, weight, performance and cost. Building a super efficient car doesn't do much to reduce overall fuel consumption if hardly anyone buys them. Getting people (like me and F8L) out of <20mpg suvs/cars into ~50mpg cars is a pretty good start.

Rob

 

Oh No! The dreaded Hybrid Premium comes into the conversation.

And you, of all people. How could you?

 

Oh man. I couldn't even read the comments under the Jalopnik story. Why are people so ignorant?!?!?!

"The answer is "none" because the economics still don't make sense. Even with the tax break. And especially now that gas has come down in price. (It didn't make sense at $4/gallon either.) People who buy these are just trying to make a statement."

OR they are trying to be smart as their current car is almost dead and they were going to buy new ANYWAY.

"Both the Prius and Insight are too small for my needs (have to cart the family and large musical instruments around on a regular basis)."

Did you read that the prius has almost TWICE the trunk room with its hatchback?!?:mmph:

"Prius: You are a 45-60 YO woman, divorced, two cats. You have no close relatives and live vicariously through the pages of People Magazine, which features profiles of Hollywood elite, many of whom drive Prii. You are bitter inside and have learned to be mistrustful of others, particularly men. These emotions manifest themselves in smugness."

ARGgggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh:mad2:

I get so mad at these misconceptions. And how cool of a car this really can be if it didn't have such a stereotype.
You know what would help??? having cute little commercials with flowers and babies and sunshine and having big giant ads that say "Butterfly Approved". i think that should shut them all up.:tape2:

 

I don't know why you're so upset, Lauren. He pegged me with that description!

OK. Maybe not "pegged" exactly, but the age range works. Perhaps I'm not a woman or divorced, but I know several of both (well, not in the Biblical way, of course). Yes, it's true: I don't have any cats (nearly deathly allergic to them, and every cat has read the memo on me), but I do like to watch Discovery Channel's programs on Big Cats. I have seen People Magazine, and I've even read a page or two; unfortunately, though, I don't know who's who in Hollywood, and the only "name" I know with a Prius is Al Gore's speeding son. OK, so I'm not really bitter inside, but there are plenty of men I've been mistrustful of, so I must qualify that way! And smugness? I don't need all of those other stinking emotions to be smug -- I come by it . . . naturally.

 

Exactly!

And thanks for the specs on the Metro. I knew they were horrible but man that is bad. lol

 

OK, I haven't shut up yet, but if I answer any more about this, you can cut me off of Priuschat.
So what folks are saying is a paraphrase of Shakespeare "The fault is not in our car manufacturers but in ourselves, that we keep buying large heavy objects." Yeah, I don't disagree. In the immortal words of Hawkeye Pierce, "I resemble that remark."
But you still haven't convinced me to pat Toyota
too hard on the back for producing a 50 mpg car (or myself for planning to buy one), especially since you folks have now convinced me that Toyota--and pretty much everyone else, can be doing a good bit better.

 

I commuted into Chicago with a friend who had a Geo Metro 2 dr hatchback.
The model that supposedly, was specifically designed to produce 60mpg on the highway...
It was a complete rattletrap--- this was 23 years ago or so--it did get 45 mpg....but build wise---his brand new vehicle was a noisy, rattling hunk of junk. You could not speak to each other at 55mph.
Other than the good mileage it was Fred Flintstone's car...My friend wrote several complaining letters to GM about the lack of 60mpg highway and of course received no response---

They were rebuilding them and selling them on ebay for awhile.

I don't think it was an example of good technology in action rather
I think it was a desperate attempt by GM to find something--anything to cover the mileage requirements for their gas hog fleet.

Froley

 

Most people think of $$$ when they see "hybrid premium". With premium price, comes premium features.

Premium price has been beaten to death from pure economic point of view. It is now the time to focus the other side of the coin, hybrid exclusive premium features.

1. Regen braking (less wear on the pads)
2. EV mode
3. ECO mode
4. POWER mode
5. Gas engine shut down
6. Exhaust recovery
7. Thermo coolant bottle
8. Clean low emission
9. Jet-smooth acceleration
10. Instant electric torque response
11. Instant brake response
12. Lack of shifting gears and jerk (even in reverse)
13. Etc

 

Hybrid smug is not as bad as Diesel smug from what I have seen.

 

Toyota is working on a smaller "Prius" based on the Yaris which is said to be due in a few years. Who knows how many MPG it will get.

 

business case and consumer behavior

For car companies, in order to remain profitable, stay in business and stay out of bankruptcy, there usually has to be a business case. You can take a look a historical nominal oil prices at http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/AOMC/Overview.html and non-adjusted terms at Weekly All Countries Spot Price FOB Weighted by Estimated Export Volume (Dollars per Barrel).

There are considerable lag between when a model or generation of a car is first conceived and when it hits showrooms, on the order of 3+ years. We're talking phases such as drawing concepts, design work, testing, sourcing of parts and so on to prototypes, writing manuals (not just your owner's manual; go look at a service manual and just be amazed at how much it took to design all that let alone write documentation on how to fix it), tooling, production ramp up, marketing, etc. Prior to that, product planning needs to be done too.

Smaller, cheaper cars have traditionally had much smaller margins than more expensive ones and previously profitable/high margin big SUVs and trucks. The Big 3 were addicted to the latter.

What's the business case for a (low margin) fuel efficient small car when gas prices are $1/gallon? How well do you think it would sell in the US? What do US consumers do in such an environment? They shy away from them and buy monstrosity class SUVs instead.

What if this hypothetical efficient car happened to be really cheap but also really weak and unsafe due to its lightness? How well would it sell at $1/gal gas? Would the automaker come close to being able to recoup their investment?

I distinctly remember in 12/01 in the Los Angeles area being amazed by <$1/gal gas all over the place. Oil prices were <$20/barrel then vs. the peak of >$140 barrel we saw last year.

US consumers seem to have a very short term memory and move away from SUVs at $4/gal gas yet they return when gas gets "cheaper" or they see all these incentives and think of all the money they "save".

We went over safety and car bloat earlier. The EPA report I cited also mentioned that many of the fuel economy gains were eaten up by horsepower and weight gains. Besides that, what real incentive do automakers to go well above and beyond the required CAFE mileage. If you look at CAFE | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration(NHTSA) | U.S. Department of Transportation under "Summary of Fuel Economy Performance", you'll see Toyota and Honda are well beyond the required amounts for their 3 fleets.

 

:spit:Of course the Clean Diesel isn't quite as smuggy, is it?